Christ's Death Was Not An Awful Mistake
- Thread starter RayneBeau
- Start date
romishpopishorganist
Member
The "Roman Catholic" believes that apart from Christ, we can do nothing, but with God, all things are possible.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
True. The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot merit or earn salvation. We are all sinners.
is the RCC Christ?
romishpopishorganist
Member
No.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Yes it does. CCC 2010 says you merit your salvation. The only working definition of merit comes out of dictionaries. If there is another 'catholic' definition then that will need the support of official catholic documentation, not opinions.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
Then who will be justified?
Do those who are baptized into the Roman Catholic Church, and have their sins washed away, then become an exemption to "all have sinned" and can then begin building merits towards their salvation through the Roman Catholic Church?
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
With God, it is possible for one to suffer the punishment for venial sins in purgatory?
romishpopishorganist
Member
The "punishment" for venial sins? It depends on what you mean by "punishment."
Do you mean the ULTIMATE punishment that Christ assumed? That is not possible. Believers cannot atone for sins in that sense. Only Christ can pay that debt.
If by "punishment" you mean "the temporal effects of sin are purged away" then, yes it is possible to suffer "punishment" in Purgatory.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
CCC 1459 and 1475 says you do expiate your sin by either doing penance or in purgatory. But i'm sure expiate doesn't really really mean expiate does it?
romishpopishorganist
Member
No. And when you talk about "exceptions" as with everything, it depends on what you mean by "exception."
Mary as a human being, like all of us comes under the legal curse for sin. Mary in a general sense then is not an exception to being under the curse of sin. Mary would have sinned had God not filled her with his grace.
The difference between a believer and Mary isn't in that they are redeemed. Mary is redeemed, the believer is redeemed.
The difference is in HOW they are redeemed. The believer is redeemed after the fact; that is, the believer falls into the hole of sin and is pulled out. Mary was saved because God through a special grace stopped her from falling into the hole. This is because Mary was to be the mother of Christ; thus, Mary needed to be a worthy vessel to bear Christ. No Christian, no Jewish person has ever had this relationship to Christ. We bear Christ spiritually, Mary bore him physically.
romishpopishorganist
Member
Not in the sense that you are defining it. We "expiate" the temporal effects of sin, not pay the ultimate price for sin. There is a huge difference.
romishpopishorganist
Member
Yes--and you need to understand all Catholic teachings in context.
As I have said many times: Protestants read Catholic belief----like Protestants. They use Catholic terms in a Protestants sense and then say "Look at evil Rome and what the whore of Babylon teaches!"
We cannot merit the initial grace of justification. That is all important--since without that grace, we can do nothing to please God no matter how "good" we are. That initial grace of justification is a complete and total gift of God that we can do nothing to earn.
You cannot understand Catholicism like you understand Protestantism. You cannot isolate our teachings the way you do. Our teachings must always be understood as part of the whole.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Rephrase:
With God, it is possible for one to suffer the purification for venial sins in purgatory?
"III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Expiation is part of the meaning of propitiation. Propitiation in Romans 3:25 is something Jesus does. The greek word is also the word for mercy seat which is the lid of the ark of the covenant where the high priest sprinkled blood on it once a year on the day of atonement. So this word is a reference to atonement. Which your ccc supports.
Even meriting your salvation, correct?
Saved by grace alone through faith alone. Glad to hear that.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
More double talk;
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory
1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God's mercy for the offense committed against him
"Make satisfaction or expiate" This is the language of atonement.
"expiating their sins in purgatory" Same thing
"the sacrament of penance obtain pardon from God's mercy for the offense committed against him" YOU are pardoned by God for the sins committed against HIM by doing penance...i.e. expiating your sin. Now please tell us this doesn't mean what it plainly says.
jonathan_hili
Well-known member
Where does the Bible say we are "saved by grace alone through faith alone"? Also, how would you understand faith? As "faith working through love"? Ultimately, it is all God's gracious love that saves us.
IOW, you are going to walk back and change your statement. Thanks. I knew qualifications to your statement would follow when I agreed with it.