Circular Reasoning

ramcam2

Well-known member
Oh you are extraordinary. Oh mean how can your possibly know that. Why do RCs treat others as if they are idiots? The arrogance never ceases to amaze me, especially when they are wrong.
do you think Jesus intended his gospel message be proclaimed to the whole world in just one letter?
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Well, gee, thanks for bringing that to our attention....:rolleyes: (sarcasm intended).

But Paul's letters DO make up half the NT. Does the RCC not consider them Scripture?
of course, it is part of the bible but do you think Jesus intended his gospel be proclaimed to the world with just the epistles when they may just be a small part of a larger conversation?
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Paul's teachings are very important to a believer. why doesn't the rcc teach more of his writings? the rcc is big on not reading or teaching what paul taught.
not only paul's writings but the church teaches the full account of the ministry of her founder and not what is just written in the bible.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
that's you evading the gospel. post it in your own words. you should be able to do that in less than 10 words.

I doubt the rcc chooses to read those verses at a Mass - or any other time.
how sure are you that it was not read at mass?
 

balshan

Well-known member
do you think Jesus intended his gospel message be proclaimed to the whole world in just one letter?
Oh once again an example of the arrogance of the RCC. Where have I ever said that? You make false claims and imply things I never said. That is bearing false witness.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Oh once again an example of the arrogance of the RCC. Where have I ever said that? You make false claims and imply things I never said. That is bearing false witness.
i am asking a question, not implying, and you can just answer with a yes or no. thanks.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
do you think He didn't know back in those days that one day those letters would be known, read and studied by people all around the world?
God is omniscient and knows everything.
so, how did He intend to pass his words to future generations?
 

balshan

Well-known member
i am asking a question, not implying, and you can just answer with a yes or no. thanks.
Oh rubbish that is a false claim you are making implications in that question. It beggars belief the way RCs imply we are ignorant. It cannot be answered with a yes or no. You cannot even tell us what the gospel message is without adding the other gospel of the RCC.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
God is omniscient and knows everything.
so, how did He intend to pass his words to future generations?
Proverbs 22:17​
Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise,​
and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.​
18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee;​
they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.​
19 That thy trust may be in the Lord,​
I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.​
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,​
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;​
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?​
Lk.1:1​
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order​
a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,​
2 Even as they delivered them unto us,​
which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;​
3 It seemed good to me also,​
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,​
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,​
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,​
wherein thou hast been instructed.​

as Peter says
" But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:​
and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you​
a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:​

Ram;
Not one of the ECFs of the Gentile Church were
" eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"
not one
and Peter was not speaking of "Oral Teaching" either
traditions passed on by some so called "Apostolic Succession"
3 It seemed good to me also,​
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,​
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,​
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,​
wherein thou hast been instructed.​
 

mica

Well-known member
mica said:
that's you evading the gospel. post it in your own words. you should be able to do that in less thawhyn 10 words.

I doubt the rcc chooses to read those verses at a Mass - or any other time.
how sure are you that it was not read at mass?
why didn't you post the gospel in your own words?

how sure are you that it was not read at mass?
pretty darn sure. look it up in your listing of readings for the year and see if you can find it. why don't catholics know it?

I hear in continually in services, not maybe once a year, but over and over again. in the teachings and the songs too.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Proverbs 22:17​
Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise,​
and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.​
18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee;​
they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.​
19 That thy trust may be in the Lord,​
I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.​
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,​
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;​
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?​
Lk.1:1​
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order​
a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,​
2 Even as they delivered them unto us,​
which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;​
3 It seemed good to me also,​
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,​
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,​
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,​
wherein thou hast been instructed.​

as Peter says
" But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:​
and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you​
a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:​

Ram;
Not one of the ECFs of the Gentile Church were
" eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"
not one
and Peter was not speaking of "Oral Teaching" either
traditions passed on by some so called "Apostolic Succession"
3 It seemed good to me also,​
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,​
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,​
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,​
wherein thou hast been instructed.​
thanks. unlike the others, you are getting an idea of what i am trying to say. the gospel was spread first orally before it was written down but not everything as testified in the bible. the entire gospel message was based on oral tradition and was only augmented by using the written revelation of the Old Testament. for 3-4 centuries before we had the written word, It is the bishop, the successors of the apostles, who tend and nurture the oral word of God (we call as sacred tradition). apostolic Traditions, was passed on orally, on par with written Scripture (1Cor.11:1-2, 1 Thess. 2:13, 2Thess.2:14, 2Tim.2:2)
relying on the bible only will not give us the full account of the ministry of Jesus (John 21:25). God must have given the means to know his son with certainty and this is through his church where the apostles are the first members and peter as the chief steward Matt16: 19). the epistles are not theological textbooks but their role is not downplayed. one has to understand that they are part of a greater picture which is apostolic teaching. Christ's intention was for the proclamation of the gospel by his apostolic community, the Church.

regarding peter, when he said that another take the office of judas citing psams (acts1: 20) is proof enough of apostolic succession.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Ram;
Not one of the ECFs of the Gentile Church were
" eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"
not one; none
and Peter was not speaking of "Oral Teaching" either
traditions passed on by some so called "Apostolic Succession"

3 It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.

thanks. unlike the others, you are getting an idea of what i am trying to say. the gospel was spread first orally before it was written down but not everything as testified in the bible. the entire gospel message was based on oral tradition and was only augmented by using the written revelation of the Old Testament. for 3-4 centuries before we had the written word, It is the bishop, the successors of the apostles, who tend and nurture the oral word of God (we call as sacred tradition). apostolic Traditions, was passed on orally, on par with written Scripture (1Cor.11:1-2, 1 Thess. 2:13, 2Thess.2:14, 2Tim.2:2)
relying on the bible only will not give us the full account of the ministry of Jesus (John 21:25). God must have given the means to know his son with certainty and this is through his church where the apostles are the first members and peter as the chief steward Matt16: 19). the epistles are not theological textbooks but their role is not downplayed. one has to understand that they are part of a greater picture which is apostolic teaching. Christ's intention was for the proclamation of the gospel by his apostolic community, the Church.

regarding peter, when he said that another take the office of judas citing psams (acts1: 20) is proof enough of apostolic succession.

Ram;
thats "Hear-Say"
I heard Jim say that Mike said that Joe said that So and So said
yadda-yadda-yadda

as for this statement
"regarding peter, when he said that another take the office of judas citing psams (acts1: 20) is proof enough of apostolic succession."

then why does John see only 12 Stars on the woman in Rev. ch.12
and not a trail of other stars following on behind ??????????

Ram;
there are only 12 true Apostles
But a hugh bunch of these
Rev.2:2and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles,
and hast found them liars

as Paul warns the Bride
2Cor. 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his (Satan's) ministers
also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works.

Ram;
there is no such thing as "Apostolic Succession"
only in the minds of those deceived by these men
"
which are evil: which say they are apostles,"
 

mica

Well-known member
ramcam2 said:
not only paul's writings but the church teaches the full account of the ministry of her founder and not what is just written in the bible.
mica said:
who are you referring to as 'her' founder?

Jesus christ (matt16: 18)
ramcam2 said:
not only paul's writings
...
how about you look up how many verses written by Paul are read in any 1 yr by your priests? and then there's whatever perverted teaching the rcc claims it means.

but the church teaches the full account of the ministry of her founder
the rcc was not 'founded' by Jesus. the rcc teachings are found nowhere in NT writings.

and not what is just written in the bible.
what is not written in scripture is exactly what the rcc teaches. what you are taught is whatever the rcc wants you to believe, not what His word actually does say.
 

balshan

Well-known member
thanks. unlike the others, you are getting an idea of what i am trying to say. the gospel was spread first orally before it was written down but not everything as testified in the bible. the entire gospel message was based on oral tradition and was only augmented by using the written revelation of the Old Testament. for 3-4 centuries before we had the written word, It is the bishop, the successors of the apostles, who tend and nurture the oral word of God (we call as sacred tradition). apostolic Traditions, was passed on orally, on par with written Scripture (1Cor.11:1-2, 1 Thess. 2:13, 2Thess.2:14, 2Tim.2:2)
relying on the bible only will not give us the full account of the ministry of Jesus (John 21:25). God must have given the means to know his son with certainty and this is through his church where the apostles are the first members and peter as the chief steward Matt16: 19). the epistles are not theological textbooks but their role is not downplayed. one has to understand that they are part of a greater picture which is apostolic teaching. Christ's intention was for the proclamation of the gospel by his apostolic community, the Church.

regarding peter, when he said that another take the office of judas citing psams (acts1: 20) is proof enough of apostolic succession.
You need to stop thinking others are stupid and you are the only one that knows that there are more than one book or that the NT was a walking, talking message before we had the writings. The writings came pretty soon after Jesus death, there was not a long gap between the word walking around and it being put into writing. RCs need to stop being arrogant.

Oh we all understand Jesus was the word and was walking gospel, but the OT was in writing and the gospel wrote down what were verbally teaching. Peter is clear on that point they wrote what they were teaching verbally. It is the RCC that has added another gospel which proves it is not founded by Jesus for a start.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Ram;
Not one of the ECFs of the Gentile Church were
" eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"
not one; none
and Peter was not speaking of "Oral Teaching" either
traditions passed on by some so called "Apostolic Succession"

3 It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.



Ram;
thats "Hear-Say"
I heard Jim say that Mike said that Joe said that So and So said
yadda-yadda-yadda

as for this statement
"regarding peter, when he said that another take the office of judas citing psams (acts1: 20) is proof enough of apostolic succession."

then why does John see only 12 Stars on the woman in Rev. ch.12
and not a trail of other stars following on behind ??????????

Ram;
there are only 12 true Apostles
But a hugh bunch of these
Rev.2:2and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:​
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles,​
and hast found them liars

as Paul warns the Bride
2Cor. 11:13​
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,​
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.​
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.​
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his (Satan's) ministers​
also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;​
whose end shall be according to their works.​

Ram;
there is no such thing as "Apostolic Succession"
only in the minds of those deceived by these men
"
which are evil: which say they are apostles,"
you may be correct that none of the ecfs have seen jesus christ but it is a fact that some of them were living during the times of the apostles that some of them were personally taught by the apostles themselves. did you know that tradition says ignatius of antioch is the child jesus carried and blessed?

anyway, which to you is a more credible witness, those living just a few hundred years from the source or those living 2000 years later?
if you mean by apostolic succession that there were only 12 original ones (except paul and barnabas) and Jesus did not appoint other apostles on the course of his earthly life, i would tend to agree with it.
but if you mean the apostles did not appoint bishops to continue in their work (except performing miracles) especially in governing the church, i will say you are mistaken.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
You need to stop thinking others are stupid and you are the only one that knows that there are more than one book or that the NT was a walking, talking message before we had the writings. The writings came pretty soon after Jesus death, there was not a long gap between the word walking around and it being put into writing. RCs need to stop being arrogant.

Oh we all understand Jesus was the word and was walking gospel, but the OT was in writing and the gospel wrote down what were verbally teaching. Peter is clear on that point they wrote what they were teaching verbally. It is the RCC that has added another gospel which proves it is not founded by Jesus for a start.
why can't you admit that God used his church, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the instrument so that we can have the book we call now as the bible?
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
how about you look up how many verses written by Paul are read in any 1 yr by your priests? and then there's whatever perverted teaching the rcc claims it means.


the rcc was not 'founded' by Jesus. the rcc teachings are found nowhere in NT writings.


what is not written in scripture is exactly what the rcc teaches. what you are taught is whatever the rcc wants you to believe, not what His word actually does say.
which church was present in the first century until today?
which church was instrumental for the book we call as the bible?
 
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