Circular Reasoning

balshan

Well-known member
why can't you admit that God used his church, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the instrument so that we can have the book we call now as the bible?
I can admit that God used his church but your institution is not His church. Why can't you admit that fact. So you are saying the HS guided your leaders into ignoring sin, having orgies, demanding payment for indulgences, turning a blind eye to children being harmed. Your leaders show that the HS is not guiding your institution and it is only the blind who do not see. The HS never guided it into the false Marian doctrines. The bible existed before your evil institution and real believers and the Jewish people were well aware of scriptures before your institution wanted to take God's glory. It was written by Jewish people in the OT and recognized without your institution. In the NT there is only one writer who might not be Jewish and that is Luke, the books were accepted before your false church, the bad tree came into the picture.

It is you who cannot admit that your institution fails every single scriptural test. No surprise.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Deut.32:31​
For their rock is not as our Rock,​
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,​
and of the fields of Gomorrah:​
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:​
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,​
and the cruel venom of asps.​
which church was present in the first century until today?

Which Churches (Plural) should be the question
2 of them
one led by and built upon the true Rock = Christ
and the 2nd
built upon the Rock of the Sodomites

I am the True Vine
--------------But--------------
For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,

yes Ram;
the RCC church of the Gentiles
was present in the 1st cebtury
and will be with us till john's revelation is fulfilled
as Peter says
as it was in the days of Sodom
set forth as an example
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
]
ramcam2 said:
which church was present in the first century until today?

Buzzard replies
Which Churches (Plural) should be the question
2 of them
one led by and built upon the true Rock = Christ
and the 2nd
built upon the Rock of the Sodomites

I am the True Vine
--------------But--------------
For their vine is of the vine of Sodom

Matthew 7:24​
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,
and doeth them,
I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house; and it fell not:
for it was founded (Built) upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine,
and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man,
which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house; and it fell:
and great was the fall of it.

---------------The Wise and the Foolish-------------

Wise; Built upon the words of Christ
Foolish; Built upon the words and surmising of Men

Traditions, Fables and ole wives tales

Proverbs 9:1​
Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine;
she hath also furnished her table.
3 She hath sent forth her maidens:
she crieth upon the highest places of the city,
4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither:
as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
6 Forsake the foolish, and live;
and go in the way of understanding.​
13 A foolish woman is clamorous:
she is simple, and knoweth nothing.​

Drink not from the Wine of the Sodomites
nor
eat of the bread harvested from the fields of Gomorrah

For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
and the cruel venom of asps
.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Deut.32:31​
For their rock is not as our Rock,​
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,​
and of the fields of Gomorrah:​
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:​
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,​
and the cruel venom of asps.​


Which Churches (Plural) should be the question
2 of them
one led by and built upon the true Rock = Christ
and the 2nd
built upon the Rock of the Sodomites

I am the True Vine
--------------But--------------
For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,

yes Ram;
the RCC church of the Gentiles
was present in the 1st cebtury
and will be with us till john's revelation is fulfilled
as Peter says
as it was in the days of Sodom
set forth as an example
sounds to me that you are not taking the dialogue seriously. you know that i am referring to the church jesus established in jerusalem, 33 ad.
anyway, thanks and peace be with you.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
I can admit that God used his church but your institution is not His church. Why can't you admit that fact. So you are saying the HS guided your leaders into ignoring sin, having orgies, demanding payment for indulgences, turning a blind eye to children being harmed. Your leaders show that the HS is not guiding your institution and it is only the blind who do not see. The HS never guided it into the false Marian doctrines. The bible existed before your evil institution and real believers and the Jewish people were well aware of scriptures before your institution wanted to take God's glory. It was written by Jewish people in the OT and recognized without your institution. In the NT there is only one writer who might not be Jewish and that is Luke, the books were accepted before your false church, the bad tree came into the picture.

It is you who cannot admit that your institution fails every single scriptural test. No surprise.
i will believe your post if you can give the name of the church that was used by God to determine the canon of the bible.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Deut.32:31
For their rock is not as our Rock,
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
and the cruel venom of asps.
sounds to me that you are not taking the dialogue seriously. you know that i am referring to the church jesus established in jerusalem, 33 ad.
anyway, thanks and peace be with you.
Ram;

Christ did not ""establish" nor build his church on
the Rock of a bunch of sexually sick old Sodomites

Get over it, you are not a member of his church
the Church you are a member of, the RCC; and defend
was the Wild Olive / Evil Tree Paul was sent to
to find a few good branches and Graft them into the True Olive
Romans Ch.11
Christ nor Paul did not start a "Church of the Gentiles"

[
i will believe your post if you can give the name of the church that was used by God to determine the canon of the bible.
The Jews; the Native / Good Olive Tree Paul spake of

here is the words of Paul once again

Romans 11:1
I say then,
Hath God cast away his people?
God forbid. For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias?
how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets,
and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone,
and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,
who
have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal
.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded.​

Ram;
so in answer to your question
"
i will believe your post if you can give the name of the church that was used by God to determine the canon of the bible.

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way:
chiefly,
because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

All the RCC; Church of the Gentiles did was Steal it from the Jews
claimed it as their own,
and used the Kings of the Earth to put down any opposition
 

balshan

Well-known member
i will believe your post if you can give the name of the church that was used by God to determine the canon of the bible.
Oh for goodness sake Jesus never gave a name to a church, so stop RC games. But it is clear they were named after Jesus who was the Way.

acts 9:2

and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

Acts 22

4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,

acts 19:9

But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

In other places the churches were called about the area they were in. The warning in Revelations to the seven churches is an example. BUT nowhere is your bad tree mentioned. NOWHERE at all.

The way knew what was Canon, it was established in most cases before your institution came onto the scene and contaminated the real church.

By the way I will never believe that loving Jesus who died to save the world would EVER establish an institution that would produce such evil fruit or teach another gospel and have wolves as leaders. The OT was canon before Jesus came in human form and your canon is a false canon. So your institution gave the real church nothing at all. You can ask until you are blue in the face, no one owes your false institution anything at all.

By the way I do not care if you believe me or not. I am not the one you should follow but use discernment about what Jesus would and would not establish. Find out what the scriptural tests are.
 
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ramcam2

Well-known member
Deut.32:31
For their rock is not as our Rock,
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
and the cruel venom of asps.

Ram;

Christ did not ""establish" nor build his church on
the Rock of a bunch of sexually sick old Sodomites

Get over it, you are not a member of his church
the Church you are a member of, the RCC; and defend
was the Wild Olive / Evil Tree Paul was sent to
to find a few good branches and Graft them into the True Olive
Romans Ch.11
Christ nor Paul did not start a "Church of the Gentiles"

[

The Jews; the Native / Good Olive Tree Paul spake of

here is the words of Paul once again

Romans 11:1​
I say then,​
Hath God cast away his people?​
God forbid. For I also am an Israelite,​
of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.​
Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias?​
how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,​
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets,​
and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone,​
and they seek my life.​
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?​
I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,
who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.​
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:​
otherwise grace is no more grace.​
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace:​
otherwise work is no more work.​
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;​
but the election hath obtained it,​
and the rest were blinded.​

Ram;
so in answer to your question
"


Romans 3:1​
What advantage then hath the Jew?​
or what profit is there of circumcision?​
2 Much every way:​
chiefly,​
because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.​
3 For what if some did not believe?​
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?​

All the RCC; Church of the Gentiles did was Steal it from the Jews
claimed it as their own,
and used the Kings of the Earth to put down any opposition
are you a christian or do you belong to the jewish faith?

if you are a christian, do you claim that it is your church jesus established in jerusalem, 33ad with the keys of heaven given to peter as the first chief steward? if yes, give your supporting evidences from history and archaeology.

thanks.
 

balshan

Well-known member
are you a christian or do you belong to the jewish faith?

if you are a christian, do you claim that it is your church jesus established in jerusalem, 33ad with the keys of heaven given to peter as the first chief steward? if yes, give your supporting evidences from history and archaeology.

thanks.
I love the ways RCs turn to human things to support their false claims - archaeology does not support their false claims and their history is revisionist history so that doesn't support their claims. Jesus never said in His words I establish the Roman Catholic Church, in fact, it is mentioned nowhere in scriptures. So all this bragging about their institution is just that false bragging, hot air.

If you apply the scriptural tests those claims fall down into hell where they belong.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Oh for goodness sake Jesus never gave a name to a church, so stop RC games. But it is clear they were named after Jesus who was the Way.

acts 9:2

and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

Acts 22

4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,

acts 19:9

But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

In other places the churches were called about the area they were in. The warning in Revelations to the seven churches is an example. BUT nowhere is your bad tree mentioned. NOWHERE at all.

The way knew what was Canon, it was established in most cases before your institution came onto the scene and contaminated the real church.

By the way I will never believe that loving Jesus who died to save the world would EVER establish an institution that would produce such evil fruit or teach another gospel and have wolves as leaders. The OT was canon before Jesus came in human form and your canon is a false canon. So your institution gave the real church nothing at all. You can ask until you are blue in the face, no one owes your false institution anything at all.

By the way I do not care if you believe me or not. I am not the one you should follow but use discernment about what Jesus would and would not establish. Find out what the scriptural tests are.
who said jesus gave a (proper} name to the church he established? he did not. the followers in antioch were called 'christians' (acts 11:26) and the third bishop of antioch, ignatius (who was a disciple of john and appointed by peter to the see in antioch) was the first to use the term 'catholic church' which means 'according to the whole' or 'universal'. Ignatius uses the term to refer to the visible and authoritative Church....

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8


despite sinful catholics or the clergy that you keep on mentioning, it cannot discount the valid authority of the bishops as the legitimate successors of the apostles. we cannot leave peter despite of judas.
 

mica

Well-known member
are you a christian or do you belong to the jewish faith?

if you are a christian, do you claim that it is your church jesus established in jerusalem, 33ad with the keys of heaven given to peter as the first chief steward? if yes, give your supporting evidences from history and archaeology.

thanks.
no Christian would claim that.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
I love the ways RCs turn to human things to support their false claims - archaeology does not support their false claims and their history is revisionist history so that doesn't support their claims. Jesus never said in His words I establish the Roman Catholic Church, in fact, it is mentioned nowhere in scriptures. So all this bragging about their institution is just that false bragging, hot air.

If you apply the scriptural tests those claims fall down into hell where they belong.
why not answer the questions?

all you can do is evade and deny.
 

balshan

Well-known member
who said jesus gave a (proper} name to the church he established? he did not. the followers in antioch were called 'christians' (acts 11:26) and the third bishop of antioch, ignatius (who was a disciple of john and appointed by peter to the see in antioch) was the first to use the term 'catholic church' which means 'according to the whole' or 'universal'. Ignatius uses the term to refer to the visible and authoritative Church....

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8


despite sinful catholics or the clergy that you keep on mentioning, it cannot discount the valid authority of the bishops as the legitimate successors of the apostles. we cannot leave peter despite of judas.
You are the one always wanting names. It is your focus. You don't seem to understand in scripture there are more references to the Way and only one use of Christians that you provided. Who cares about the use of catholic church and when it was in. Your Roman CC is off and has nothing at all to do with body established by Jesus. The sinful acts of the majority of your leaders proves it is the bad tree, it does not matter how many times you deny that fact, it is scriptural. Your leaders teach a false gospel and they will be cut off. This false doctrines are further truth of the false claims of your evil tree. They are not successors of the apostles, they are not apostolic, they do not teach what the apostles taught and they definitely do not act like the apostles. Your so called line of succession is a made up false teaching. Nothing in scripture supports following wolves or false teachers which your leaders are. You have nothing at all. Your institution fails every SINGLE scriptural test.
 

mica

Well-known member
ramcam2 said:
are you a christian or do you belong to the jewish faith?

if you are a christian, do you claim that it is your church jesus established in jerusalem, 33ad with the keys of heaven given to peter as the first chief steward? if yes, give your supporting evidences from history and archaeology.
mica said:

no Christian would claim that.

ramcam2 said: - about half of the total global chriatian population claims it and that is a statistical fact. :) :love: :)
why would i believe what you claim is a fact? there's no reason to. Peter was given the keys to heaven as all believers are, but not as a 'chief steward' - what you all claim as a pope. you continually show that you don't understand scripture.

there is no 1 human over His church on earth.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
why would i believe what you claim is a fact? there's no reason to. Peter was given the keys to heaven as all believers are, but not as a 'chief steward' - what you all claim as a pope. you continually show that you don't understand scripture.

there is no 1 human over His church on earth.
if you do not believe that about half of the global christians are catholic with the pope in rome as their head, why not check the internet/reference books/ etc...

the statistical truth is there whether you agree or not.
 

A new day

Well-known member
if you do not believe that about half of the global christians are catholic with the pope in rome as their head, why not check the internet/reference books/ etc...

the statistical truth is there whether you agree or not.
Your the one who brought it up, and the onus is on you to provide verification. It is your claim.
 
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