Circular Reasoning

RiJoRi

Well-known member
the catholic church is holy because the founder is holy. it does mean the members are sinless.
IF this attitude (that the members are sinless) is at all widespread amongst the hierarchy (remember, the laity goes to confession, and are hence not sinless), it sheds light on the (in)actions of the priesthood regarding all the abuses that have come to light, both recently and historically.

"No, Father Bob did not sin, but we will transfer him away from his accusers." It's very sad knowing what the RCC could have been, and seeing it as it truly is...

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 

balshan

Well-known member
the catholic church is holy because the founder is holy. it does mean the members are sinless.
If your members are sinless, then why do you need confession, penance, last rites, purgatory. That is bunkum. If the members are sinless why have scandal been part and parcel of RC history. Its leaders have conducted orgies, raped nuns, had children outside of marriage, committed incest, abused and molested children. They encouraged murder, torture, wars etc throughout its history. Then they are very greedy just look at what they did in Sth Aust. They do not expose sin as required but hide it. They also show a lack of morals. Hmm nothing Christlike in the leadership for a start.

We know from the need for confession the laity aren't sinless either.

Another point RCs defend their evil leaders by saying all are sinners, Jesus had Judas, there are tares among the wheat. This to justify their evil leaders but it also makes your claim false.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Doesn't matter what was decided long ago. It's what you spew out of your mouth today that matters. Those of yesteryear, made the decision to make Scripture available to everybody today so that we could know God, and His will.

But instead of sharing the gospel with others, like Scripture tells us to do, your wanting people to trust in your institution and in empty and shallow rituals instead of trusting God, to do as He said He would. So you point everyone away from Jesus and into the direction of a priest who doesn't know the gospel message himself.

All a rc priest knows is that he is to follow a set of rituals, that are merely a daily routine that mean very little
i hope you are not generalizing since majority of catholic priests are still true to their divine vocation.
initially, i had high regard for your posts but it seems you are sliding down to ad hominems like what others do.
thanks and peace be with you.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
If your members are sinless, then why do you need confession, penance, last rites, purgatory. That is bunkum. If the members are sinless why have scandal been part and parcel of RC history. Its leaders have conducted orgies, raped nuns, had children outside of marriage, committed incest, abused and molested children. They encouraged murder, torture, wars etc throughout its history. Then they are very greedy just look at what they did in Sth Aust. They do not expose sin as required but hide it. They also show a lack of morals. Hmm nothing Christlike in the leadership for a start.

We know from the need for confession the laity aren't sinless either.

Another point RCs defend their evil leaders by saying all are sinners, Jesus had Judas, there are tares among the wheat. This to justify their evil leaders but it also makes your claim false.
we do not say we are sinless.

we go to confession because jesus instituted the sacrament of confession

even the early christians, practice it.

peace be with you.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
IF this attitude (that the members are sinless) is at all widespread amongst the hierarchy (remember, the laity goes to confession, and are hence not sinless), it sheds light on the (in)actions of the priesthood regarding all the abuses that have come to light, both recently and historically.

"No, Father Bob did not sin, but we will transfer him away from his accusers." It's very sad knowing what the RCC could have been, and seeing it as it truly is...

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
i did not say catholics are sinless.
 

balshan

Well-known member
we do not say we are sinless.

we go to confession because jesus instituted the sacrament of confession

even the early christians, practice it.

peace be with you.
Reread your post 1832 - it does mean the members are sinless.

That is exactly what you said.
 

balshan

Well-known member
read the bible
Yep it is you who needs to read the bible. It says

Matt 7:15+

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...

another version

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...

Gal 5:19

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.


Your tree is the bad, diseased tree it has works of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy greed, orgies etc. Your leaders are false prophets. I read the bible Rcs only read what suits them and ignores the rest.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Except your founder was not necessarily holy as it was a man. Jesus did not find such an evil institution and it insults Him to even suggest it. So that is just RC propaganda.
jesus is true GOD and true man.

and he founded a church.

bishop ignaitus of antioch is the first to use the phrase 'catholic church' in his letter to the smyrneans in 110ad. he is the third bishop after peter and evodius (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, iii, 22, Migne, P.G., L), it is peter who appointed ignatius to the see of antioch (Theodoret (“Dial. Immutab.”, I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642), john crysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the apostles themselves (“Hom. in st. Ig”, IV, 587, Migne, P.G.).

no propaganda, but historical fact.
 

balshan

Well-known member
jesus is true GOD and true man.

and he founded a church.

bishop ignaitus of antioch is the first to use the phrase 'catholic church' in his letter to the smyrneans in 110ad. he is the third bishop after peter and evodius (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, iii, 22, Migne, P.G., L), it is peter who appointed ignatius to the see of antioch (Theodoret (“Dial. Immutab.”, I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642), john crysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the apostles themselves (“Hom. in st. Ig”, IV, 587, Migne, P.G.).

no propaganda, but historical fact.
It does not matter how many times you post it, He did not find your institution. It does not look like His church, it fails every scriptural test except for the bad tree and it is not historical fact at all.

Who cares who gave your false instiution the name.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
It does not matter how many times you post it, He did not find your institution. It does not look like His church, it fails every scriptural test except for the bad tree and it is not historical fact at all.

Who cares who gave your false instiution the name.
jesus founded the catholic church and ignatius is one of the bishops of the catholic church in antioch.
that is historical fact which you cannot deny.
 

balshan

Well-known member
jesus founded the catholic church and ignatius is one of the bishops of the catholic church in antioch.
that is historical fact which you cannot deny.
Jesus did not follow your bad tree and Ignatius would not touch your institution with a ten foot barge pole in case it stained him. We all know who ignatius is and he was not a bishop of your evil institution. He died before your institution was born. I can deny false RCC revisionist history.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Jesus did not follow your bad tree and Ignatius would not touch your institution with a ten foot barge pole in case it stained him. We all know who ignatius is and he was not a bishop of your evil institution. He died before your institution was born. I can deny false RCC revisionist history.
the church jesus established is indefectible ( the gates hell will not prevail). the moral character of the main trunk remains unaltered despite the many evil branches. all you can do is evade and deny what is biblical and historical truth.

Luke 22: 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has claimed power over you all, so that he can sift you like wheat: 32 but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; when, after a while, thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.
 

balshan

Well-known member
the church jesus established is indefectible ( the gates hell will not prevail). the moral character of the main trunk remains unaltered despite the many evil branches. all you can do is evade and deny what is biblical and historical truth.

Luke 22: 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has claimed power over you all, so that he can sift you like wheat: 32 but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; when, after a while, thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.
Your institution is NOT THE CHURCH Jesus established, your institution has boldly walked through the gates of hell and its trunk is corrupted and rotten. All you do is evade and deny the truth about the fruit of your institution throughout the ceenturies. Your field is a field of tares with no wheat at all.

You fail to follow the scriptures to test the spirits behind your institution, it test your leaders and to discern. You have decided to not see the evidence about your institution.
 

ramcam2

Well-known member
Your institution is NOT THE CHURCH Jesus established, your institution has boldly walked through the gates of hell and its trunk is corrupted and rotten. All you do is evade and deny the truth about the fruit of your institution throughout the ceenturies. Your field is a field of tares with no wheat at all.

You fail to follow the scriptures to test the spirits behind your institution, it test your leaders and to discern. You have decided to not see the evidence about your institution.
if not my institution, which institution is the church jesus established?
 

bluedog1us

Well-known member
if not my institution, which institution is the church jesus established?
All born again believers make up the church. Not one denomination. Especially one teaching doctrines which can't be found in scripture, and the one who teaches another gospel than the one the apostles taught.
 

balshan

Well-known member
if not my institution, which institution is the church jesus established?
He did not establish any institution, He never even built a building. Real believers know each other and they do not have to be in the same denomination. Once again you prove RCs do not know Jesus. They know of Him but are sadly lacking in knowing Him, if they think He would have anything to do with an evil institution that allows children to be harmed and that sin hidden,
 
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