Circular Reasoning

Not what you said. God can grant grace but if a man continues to molest children he will not have God's grace at all. There is no gift of infallibility and if there was it would be affected by those who are rapists of nuns, abuse/molest children, those who are sexualy immoral, those who do not expose sin etc. If your leaders do not follow Jesus then they are following satan. We can follow one master or the other. If your leaders have chosen Satan and their actions prove they have, then they are not following Jesus and they can never be trusted. I mean who would trust anything that comes from or is said by Satan. There is no middle ground.

I just love the way RCs compare Peter to their evil leaders and now to themselves. I personally never ever considered harming a child, would never commit a rape, never been to an orgie. I praise God for that. You might consider yourself and Peter in the same league as your evil leaders but we are not all the same.

The sins your leaders commit especially those who ignored all the sin the others were doing is evidence of how far your leaders are from God. It shows how rebellious they are. They are not guided by the HS and no matter how often RCs claim it, their leaders actions reveal the truth. The other apostles did not commit the sins of your leaders either.

Isn't it a joke that RCs claim their are different levels of sin, put Peter, the apostles and all of us on the same level as Judas and their leaders who rape, who teach false doctrines, who defraud governments, who organise and particape in orgies, who condone murder, torture and persecution, who have children outside marriage, who harm, molest and abuse children. These are just some of the sins of their leaders throughout the centuries. They do not meet the scriptural requirements for the leaders of the real church.

RCs need to stop covering up the evil of their leaders throughout the centuries, they need to read the signs of what their leaders really are.

Matt 23: 2 The scribes and Pharisees, he said, have established themselves in the place from which Moses used to teach; 3 do what they tell you, then, continue to observe what they tell you, but do not imitate their actions, for they tell you one thing and do another.
 
Not even as an "overseer" (episkopēs – bishop) which is what Peter's "successor" titles himself. ?

But when you've sold out for "all the glories of the world", you can probably justify yourself taking any title you feel like taking.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). As a matter of fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society removed them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. This historically demonstrate that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.
Good thing they did because they are full of errors.
 
Still does not prove he was ever the pope and leader of the church. And when Peter wrote his letters he referred to himself as an ELDER and fellow worker with the other apostles. Not as the leader.

Not even as an "overseer" (episkopēs – bishop) which is what Peter's "successor" titles himself. ?

But when you've sold out for "all the glories of the world", you can probably justify yourself taking any title you feel like taking.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
it was peter who was named rock that jesus gave the keys (matt16:18; see isaiah22: 22 for what the keys meant)

read also the writing of the early christians who clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following shows:

Tatian the Syrian​

“Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian​

“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James​

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

The Clementine Homilies​

“[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]” (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).

Origen​

“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]” (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage​

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering” (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ” (ibid., 66[69]:8).


Augustine​

“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. … In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

Council of Ephesus​

“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

Pope Leo I​

“Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it” (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).

Council of Chalcedon​

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).
 
it was peter who was named rock that jesus gave the keys (matt16:18; see isaiah22: 22 for what the keys meant)

read also the writing of the early christians who clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following shows:

Tatian the Syrian​

“Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian​

“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James​

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

The Clementine Homilies​

“[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]” (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).

Origen​

“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]” (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage​

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering” (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ” (ibid., 66[69]:8).

Firmilian​

“But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]” (collected in Cyprian’s Letters74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

“[Pope] Stephen . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter” (ibid., 74[75]:17).

Ephraim the Syrian​

“[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Optatus​

“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan​

“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

“It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).

Pope Damasus I​

“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome​

“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Po
 
Matt 23: 2 The scribes and Pharisees, he said, have established themselves in the place from which Moses used to teach; 3 do what they tell you, then, continue to observe what they tell you, but do not imitate their actions, for they tell you one thing and do another.
As has been pointed out on numerous occasion by others that is the seat where they read scripture and made judgments according to scripture.. RCs have no clues as to what this passage really means, it does not mean we have to follow Satan just because he wears a mitre or the papal tiara.

This passage is not referring to those who are to be expelled which covers the bulk of your leaders. 1 Cor 5:11. Paul obviously did not think in his God inspired writings we need to follow those who harm children, force children into sexual acts, molest children, abuse children, rape nuns, have children out of wedlock. Those things are all sexually immoral. Paul was clear do not even eat with them.

Once again an RC showing a lack of understanding of scripture and trying to justify their false leaders, claims and teachings.

This post is stating fact and is not an admonien just in case you are confused. The true facts are not attacks. God is clear we are to be truthful and not deceive. RCs want us to be deceivers and not truthful.
 

Firmilian​

“But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]” (collected in Cyprian’s Letters74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

“[Pope] Stephen . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter” (ibid., 74[75]:17).


Ephraim the Syrian

“[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).


Optatus

“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).


Ambrose of Milan

“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

“It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).



Pope Damasus I

“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).


Jerome

“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Po
Falliblee men who did not know how your leaders or how evil they would become.
 
Matt 23: 2 The scribes and Pharisees, he said, have established themselves in the place from which Moses used to teach; 3 do what they tell you, then, continue to observe what they tell you, but do not imitate their actions, for they tell you one thing and do another.
Not a good defence at all. All you have done is prove you do not what that passage means. We are clearly told not to follow false teachers, your leaders are false teachers. So that passage does not allow to such leaders.
 
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). As a matter of fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society removed them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. This historically demonstrate that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.
This true
Rome added them to the scriptures
and confirmed it
This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).​

then in the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society removed them in 1825

OK;
It was the Reformation, thats spelled R-E-F-O-R-M ation
all they did was to correct the errors Rome that had made.
 
This true
Rome added them to the scriptures
and confirmed it
This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).​

then in the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society removed them in 1825

OK;
It was the Reformation, thats spelled R-E-F-O-R-M ation
all they did was to correct the errors Rome that had made.
if true, show us the original?
 
Not a good defence at all. All you have done is prove you do not what that passage means. We are clearly told not to follow false teachers, your leaders are false teachers. So that passage does not allow to such leaders.
we do not imitate the sins of of our church leaders but they are not false teachers since they have the mark of apostolicity. therefore, we follow what they teach on matters of faith and morals.

our church leaders have a clear lineage going all the way back to the apostles. how about yours?

john 20: 21....21 .... I came upon an errand from my Father, and now I am sending you out in my turn.

romans10: 15 And how can there be preachers, unless preachers are sent on their errand?....
 
we do not imitate the sins of of our church leaders but they are not false teachers since they have the mark of apostolicity. therefore, we follow what they teach on matters of faith and morals.

That is 100% not true : even Cardinals and Bishops don't agree with that statement.

Cardinal Müller says obedience is not owed to an ‘obviously heretical bishop’

"In light of the fact that many bishops are supporting the heretical direction of the Synod on Synodality, Hickson asked: “Will faithful Catholics no longer be able to go to every Mass and every bishop, but have to look for those clergy who will still teach them the true faith and will not lead them to compromise with the world?”"
"
The Cardinal replied that “one does not have to obey an obviously heretical bishop just for reasons of formal fidelity.”

Blind obedience such as this, he continued, “would be cadaveric obedience, which not only contradicts reason but also faith.”"

Cardinal Müller on Synod on Synodality: ‘A Hostile Takeover of the Church of Jesus Christ … We Must Resist’
" saying the Catholic Church is facing ‘a hostile takeover’ by people who ‘think that doctrine is like the program of a political party’ that can be changed by votes."
 
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we do not imitate the sins of of our church leaders but they are not false teachers since they have the mark of apostolicity. therefore, we follow what they teach on matters of faith and morals.

our church leaders have a clear lineage going all the way back to the apostles. how about yours?

john 20: 21....21 .... I came upon an errand from my Father, and now I am sending you out in my turn.

romans10: 15 And how can there be preachers, unless preachers are sent on their errand?....
Really that is not what I posted. No your leaders do not have a clear lineage at all. That is a false claim. They do not meet the scriptural requirements for leaders, so they are not leaders that have a clear lineage at all. RCC is all talk, their actions tell a different story.

You follow their false teachings on matters of faith and don't make me laugh morals. By the way how would you know what the laity is doing, I know so many RCs who go to mediums and physics. RCs posting here twist what we say, your post just did that to mine. Yet you think your laity are not affected by your bad leaders. We have all seen how strongly RCs want to bury the actions of the evil leaders and not read what it says about your institution.
 
That is 100% not true : even Cardinals and Bishops don't agree with that statement.

Cardinal Müller says obedience is not owed to an ‘obviously heretical bishop’

"In light of the fact that many bishops are supporting the heretical direction of the Synod on Synodality, Hickson asked: “Will faithful Catholics no longer be able to go to every Mass and every bishop, but have to look for those clergy who will still teach them the true faith and will not lead them to compromise with the world?”"
"
The Cardinal replied that “one does not have to obey an obviously heretical bishop just for reasons of formal fidelity.”

Blind obedience such as this, he continued, “would be cadaveric obedience, which not only contradicts reason but also faith.”"

Cardinal Müller on Synod on Synodality: ‘A Hostile Takeover of the Church of Jesus Christ … We Must Resist’
" saying the Catholic Church is facing ‘a hostile takeover’ by people who ‘think that doctrine is like the program of a political party’ that can be changed by votes."
and why will we follow heretical teachings if that is what you are implying?
 
Really that is not what I posted. No your leaders do not have a clear lineage at all. That is a false claim. They do not meet the scriptural requirements for leaders, so they are not leaders that have a clear lineage at all. RCC is all talk, their actions tell a different story.

You follow their false teachings on matters of faith and don't make me laugh morals. By the way how would you know what the laity is doing, I know so many RCs who go to mediums and physics. RCs posting here twist what we say, your post just did that to mine. Yet you think your laity are not affected by your bad leaders. We have all seen how strongly RCs want to bury the actions of the evil leaders and not read what it says about your institution.
only god can read what is in our hearts
 
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