Circumstances are designed to produce faith

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

?

Isn't this verse contrary to how some believe faith is produced?

In this verse, faith is produced from poverty. In fact, it clearly says that God has chosen such.....

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

?

Isn't this verse contrary to how some believe faith is produced?

In this verse, faith is produced from poverty. In fact, it clearly says that God has chosen such.....

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
For every Verse which says we 'can', Grace should be presumed to have already prevened our Ability...

We should never presume that our ability prevenes the Grace of God...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

?

Isn't this verse contrary to how some believe faith is produced?

In this verse, faith is produced from poverty. In fact, it clearly says that God has chosen such.....

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Your really hacking up that verse.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Circumstances are designed to produce faith?

Your really grasping at straws now.
You might say regeneration is the condition to receive the gift of faith.

But to lead people to belief? I can see the law convicting the world of their sins, but they just suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Unless of course, they are elect.

But I am interested in how you are going to try and turn that verse to support your works salvation.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
For every Verse which says we 'can', Grace should be presumed to have already prevened our Ability...

We should never presume that our ability prevenes the Grace of God...

That is your addition to the narrative. I do NOT see that anywhere in what James said. Please provide details.

How about

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Did Jesus Christ's poverty produce anything?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Your really hacking up that verse.

It is one liners like this and the fact you never even attempt to deal with what I've said, that give me reasons to ignore you.

At least RV is trying to systematically respond. I can respect that even if we sharply disagree.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

The reality of ALL men's ultimate demises in poverty is Design by God to produce faith.

Any man can understand this. Man witnesses death all around him. Day after day. Year after year. Over and over again. The rich brought to poverty. The rich brought to nothing.

Along comes the Gospel. The promise of God. Hope for the destitute. Hope for the dying.

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

The Calvinist narrative is that man can not recognize his own weakness. His own poverty. His own failures. While..... hearing that there is hope from the Gospel message and answer the Gospel call of his own freewill.

This is not true. God designed this life. Our weakness and poverty to produce faith in us. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is wholly unique in narrative to any other religion in this world. It is designed to produce faith in the poor.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It is one liners like this and the fact you never even attempt to deal with what I've said, that give me reasons to ignore you.

At least RV is trying to systematically respond. I can respect that even if we sharply disagree.
Personally, I could care less what you respect.

I’m just stating a fact!
 

Carbon

Well-known member
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

The reality of ALL men's ultimate demises in poverty is Design by God to produce faith.

Any man can understand this. Man witnesses death all around him. Day after day. Year after year. Over and over again. The rich brought to poverty. The rich brought to nothing.

Along comes the Gospel. The promise of God. Hope for the destitute. Hope for the dying.

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

The Calvinist narrative is that man can not recognize his own weakness. His own poverty. His own failures. While..... hearing that there is hope from the Gospel message and answer the Gospel call of his own freewill.
Ever heard of the Law? Just curious.
This is not true. God designed this life. Our weakness and poverty to produce faith in us. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is wholly unique in narrative to any other religion in this world. It is designed to produce faith in the poor.
If it is as you say, then it is a bad design. Unless every poor person is going to be saved.

Not only are you preaching a salvation by works, you teach a false gospel.

And that needs to be pointed out and exposed
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
If it is as you say, then it is a bad design. Unless every poor person is going to be saved.

Sometimes, I don't know if you're real or not. You don't understand the basic principles behind most any argument. For example, your statement above demanding that all the poor be saved disregards the very fact that even Calvinists preach and believe in the limited effectiveness of the Atonement. Meaning, there is no demand that all be saved regardless of if Christ died for all or just the elect. It is only effective for the elect.

Such things are lost on you. You're only able to haphazardly throw some verses you've learned around without understanding the arguments behind them.

I tell myself to not bother with you and here I am doing it again..... Geesh......My fault for sure.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Sometimes, I don't know if you're real or not.
Oh I’m
You don't understand the basic principles behind most any argument.
You haven’t had a real argument yet.
For example, you statement above demanding that all the poor be saved disregards the very fact that even Calvinists preach and believe in the limited effectiveness of the Atonement. Meaning, there is no demand that all be saved regardless of if Christ died for all or just the elect. It is only effective for the elect.
Read your post again and see what you wrote.

here I’ll help:
praise_yeshua said:
God designed this life. Our weakness and poverty to produce faith in us. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is wholly unique in narrative to any other religion in this world. It is designed to produce faith in the poor.

Im sure any Bible believing christian would agree that’s total nonsense! Calvinist or Arminian.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to produce faith in the poor???
Is that really what it was designed to do?
Where do you come up with this stuff?
It does not take more than a one liner to point out the false gospel your trying to promote.
Such things are lost on you.
😂
You're only able to haphazardly throw some verses you've learned around without understanding the arguments behind them.
Your arguing a false gospel.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That is your addition to the narrative. I do NOT see that anywhere in what James said. Please provide details.

How about

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Did Jesus Christ's poverty produce anything?
Yes, Systematic Theology makes additions to the Narrative; or more rightly said, All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. You agree that Grace is always prior to Faith, so the Hermeneutic for All Scripture is that when a Verse says we "can", Grace is to always be presumed to prevene our Ability...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Yes, Systematic Theology makes additions to the Narrative; or more rightly said, All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. You agree that Grace is always prior to Faith, so the Hermeneutic for All Scripture is that when a Verse says we "can", Grace is to always be presumed to prevene our Ability...
What he means by grace in this thread is God designing the gospel to produce faith in the poor.

Is this really even close to the grace spoken of in scripture?

That’s total nonsense!
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Yes, Systematic Theology makes additions to the Narrative; or more rightly said, All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. You agree that Grace is always prior to Faith, so the Hermeneutic for All Scripture is that when a Verse says we "can", Grace is to always be presumed to prevene our Ability...

Doctrine is within our purview. It is part and parcel to the house we build to please our Lord.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Does a drowning man seek refuge? Do the poor seek BETTER things.....?

There is nothing BETTER than Jesus Christ.
 
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