Circumstances are designed to produce faith

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TomFL

Guest
You know Compatibalists are not supposed to ignore Verses, so I don't. I don't ignore that it never entered the Mind of God that Judah should Sin, but God Determined the Act just as much as Judah did; but God meant it for Good...

God meant to pay Judah's children Wages for Sin too...
But you are

The verse clearly shows God was not involved in the act

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

then explain how he could have determined it if it never entered his mind to decree that they should do that
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
God didn't create evil.

Isa. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city,
and the people not be afraid?

shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

1 Kings 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, ...

Isa. 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

Lam. 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

How can you say that God intended Judah's act and not their sin when their act was sin?

Because that's what Scripture teaches.

Previously edited

Are you engaging in ad hom because you don't have a suitable rebuttal?

You're making the argument that sin makes Grace abound... That is not true. That is a false Gospel.

No, he's not making that argument at all.
 
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civic

Well-known member
But you are

The verse clearly shows God was not involved in the act

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

then explain how he could have determined it if it never entered his mind to decree that they should do that
Are you saying God was unaware this would occur ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
What do you mean by decree? Define your terms
Are you still dodging the question

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

did God determine they would do it
 
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TomFL

Guest
He says he is not an Open Theist but acts like one...
You are fabricating here

I have twice denied God was unaware of what they would do

and I did so in a reply to you

What possesses you to make a statement you should know is false ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Are you saying God was unaware this would occur ?
No I have twice previously denied such

Now for the third time

I am saying God was not involved in causing them to do it

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
 
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TomFL

Guest
ReverendRV stated Potter/Clay; right friend? It would be wrong for God to not pay the Wages of Sin, right?

You misunderstand the potter clay analogy as well

It is not about God making some vessels of wrath from birth

Rather Israel was created for a noble purpose of bringing Messiah into the world and to be the mouth piece of God
announcing his word to the world

But because of unbelief God used many in Israel for the ignoble purpose of crucifying messiah

The verse is not about unconditional election/reprobation

Further the verse does not teach man's passivity

Jeremiah 18:1-12 (KJV)
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

but rather his intransigence in the face of God's pronouncements
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You are fabricating here

I have twice denied God was unaware of what they would do

and I did so in a reply to you

What possesses you to make a statement you should know is false ?
I'm going to take a break here for a little while since Theo and Civic are here. You know we've discussed this in the past, so know we'll do it again...
 

civic

Well-known member
You misunderstand the potter clay analogy as well

It is not about God making some vessels of wrath from birth

Rather Israel was created for a noble purpose of bringing Messiah into the world and to be the mouth piece of God
announcing his word to the world

But because of unbelief God used many in Israel for the ignoble purpose of crucifying messiah

The verse is not about unconditional election/reprobation

Further the verse does not teach man's passivity

Jeremiah 18:1-12 (KJV)
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

but rather his intransigence in the face of God's pronouncements
From ligonier


However, though we end our quest to answer the origin of evil, one thing is certain: since God is both omnipotent and good, we must conclude that in His omnipotence and goodness there must be a place for the existence of evil. We know that God Himself never does that which is evil. Nevertheless, He also ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Though He does not do evil and does not create evil, He does ordain that evil exists. If it does exist, and if God is sovereign, then obviously He must have been able to prevent its existence. If He allowed evil to enter into this universe, it could only be by His sovereign decision. Since His sovereign decisions always follow the perfection of His being, we must conclude that His decision to allow evil to exist is a good decision.

Again, we must be careful here. We must never say that evil is good, or that good is evil. But that is not the same thing as saying, "It is good that there is evil." Again, I repeat, it is good that there is evil, else evil could not exist. Even this theodicy does not explain the "how" of the entrance of evil into the world. It only reflects upon the "why" of the reality of evil. One thing we know for sure is that evil does exist. It exists, if nowhere else, in us and in our behavior. We know that the force of evil is extraordinary and brings great pain and suffering into the world. We also know that God is sovereign over it and in His sovereignty will not allow evil to have the last word. Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself. It is God in His goodness and in His sovereignty who has ordained the final conquest over evil and its riddance from His universe. In this redemption we find our rest and our joy -- and until that time, we live in a fallen world.
 

civic

Well-known member
And what the brothers meant for evil , God meant for good. God makes good come from evil. The same goes with the cross and death of Jesus for our sins by evil men who put Him to death .

hope this helps !!!
 
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TomFL

Guest
I'm going to take a break here for a little while since Theo and Civic are here. You know we've discussed this in the past, so know we'll do it again...
That is a cop out

you made a totally false statement

you have no proof for and should have known better

again What possesses you to make a statement you should know is false ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
From ligonier


However, though we end our quest to answer the origin of evil, one thing is certain: since God is both omnipotent and good, we must conclude that in His omnipotence and goodness there must be a place for the existence of evil. We know that God Himself never does that which is evil. Nevertheless, He also ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Though He does not do evil and does not create evil, He does ordain that evil exists. If it does exist, and if God is sovereign, then obviously He must have been able to prevent its existence. If He allowed evil to enter into this universe, it could only be by His sovereign decision. Since His sovereign decisions always follow the perfection of His being, we must conclude that His decision to allow evil to exist is a good decision.

Again, we must be careful here. We must never say that evil is good, or that good is evil. But that is not the same thing as saying, "It is good that there is evil." Again, I repeat, it is good that there is evil, else evil could not exist. Even this theodicy does not explain the "how" of the entrance of evil into the world. It only reflects upon the "why" of the reality of evil. One thing we know for sure is that evil does exist. It exists, if nowhere else, in us and in our behavior. We know that the force of evil is extraordinary and brings great pain and suffering into the world. We also know that God is sovereign over it and in His sovereignty will not allow evil to have the last word. Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself. It is God in His goodness and in His sovereignty who has ordained the final conquest over evil and its riddance from His universe. In this redemption we find our rest and our joy -- and until that time, we live in a fallen world.
That has what to do with the Potter- clay analogy ?

God did not create Israel unfaithful
 

civic

Well-known member
That has what to do with the Potter- clay analogy ?

God did not create Israel unfaithful
I’m discussing the problem with evil . Evil is the byproduct of sin . God did not create sin and everything He created was said to be good in Genesis .

hope this helps !!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Are you still dodging the question

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

did God determine they would do it
Depends. What do you mean by determine? What do you mean by decree? Define your terms
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Because that's what Scripture teaches.

No that is not what scripture teaches

Jeremiah 19:3-7 (ESV)
3 You shall say, ‘Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing such disaster upon this place that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle.
4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents,
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
6 therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the LORD, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
7 And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth.

What warped view of God you present

He determines acts which are therefore necessary and unavoidable and then he punishes those who do what he determined though they could do no other
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No that is not what scripture teaches

Jeremiah 19:3-7 (ESV)
3 You shall say, ‘Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing such disaster upon this place that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle.
4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents,
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
6 therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the LORD, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
7 And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth.

What warped view of God you present

He determines acts which are therefore necessary and unavoidable and then he punishes those who do what he determined though they could do no other
Sure. See Acts 4: 27 and 28
 
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