Col. 1 Is Not About The Genesis Creation - Change My Mind

johnny guitar said:
The Firstborn of ALL creation.
BECAUSE BY Him were ALL things created.
And He is BEFORE ALL things.
Case closed.
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It says all things in heaven and on earth and it is not talking about him creating the heaven or the earth. And this regards thrones, principalities and powers visible and invisible.
 
Nathan P said:
No all that is needed is to know it is not talking about creation there because it says everything in heaven and on earth, or it is talking about everything to do with powers , thrones and so forth in and on that he created on a already existing heaven and a earth.
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Nathan,
If this is true, then you have two creators, one that makes the heavens and the Earth, and one that creates everything in heaven and on Earth; but Yahweh says,

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself..." (Isa 44:24) And again, "It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isa 45:12)

There is only one creator of all things, one set of hands that does the work.


Nice attempt to change the tactic of your argument from Subject/object issues to creation or things in creation; but I've been around the block too many times to fall for that type of "hail Mary" effort!


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Nathan,
If this is true, then you have two creators, one that makes the heavens and the Earth, and one that creates everything in heaven and on Earth; but Yahweh says,

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself..." (Isa 44:24) And again, "It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isa 45:12)

There is only one creator of all things, one set of hands that does the work.


Nice attempt to change the tactic of your argument from Subject/object issues to creation or things in creation; but I've been around the block too many times to fall for that type of "hail Mary" effort!


Doug
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You are not paying attention. Col. 1 is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the heaven(s) and the earth being created. Gen 1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Or they did not exist until God created them. Again at Col. 1 it is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the the heaven(s) and the earth being created because it says whether they be thrones, powers or principalities. Or the best way to describe them would be the power for like people on earth to govern is my best guess.
 
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Nathan P said:
You are not paying attention. Col. 1 is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the heaven(s) and the earth being created. Gen 1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Or they did not exist until God created them. Again at Col. 1 it is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the the heaven(s) and the earth being created because it says whether they be thrones, powers or principalities. Or the best way to describe them would be the power for like people on earth to govern is my best guess.
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So, in other words, because Paul specifies a particular aspect of creation, the whole of creation is not implied? Ridiculous!

Again, you are positing that there are two creators, one that created the heavens and Earth, as an empty sort of containers, and one who filled those containers with stuff! Isaiah 44 and 45, referenced in my last post, refute that assertion!

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
So, in other words, because Paul specifies a particular aspect of creation, the whole of creation is not implied? Ridiculous!

Again, you are positing that there are two creators, one that created the heavens and Earth, as an empty sort of containers, and one who filled those containers with stuff! Isaiah 44 and 45, referenced in my last post, refute that assertion!

Doug
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You refuted nothing because it is talking about things in heaven and on earth and not the heaven and the earth. Isaiah 44 and 45 are talking about the creation itself and not what was created after they were created. Jesus creates things in heaven and on earth and the Father created the heaven and the earth and he Jesus) creates the thrones, powers and so forth in and on heaven and earth.

Prove it it is talking about the whole of creation there and not what was created in heaven and on earth?
 
TibiasDad said:
Nathan,
If this is true, then you have two creators, one that makes the heavens and the Earth, and one that creates everything in heaven and on Earth; but Yahweh says,

"This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself..." (Isa 44:24) And again, "It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isa 45:12)

There is only one creator of all things, one set of hands that does the work.


Nice attempt to change the tactic of your argument from Subject/object issues to creation or things in creation; but I've been around the block too many times to fall for that type of "hail Mary" effort!


Doug
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It is talking about one creator for the heavens and the earth or the physical things for the Father and for the Son it is talking about what was created after the heavens and the earth were created.
 
TibiasDad said:
So, in other words, because Paul specifies a particular aspect of creation, the whole of creation is not implied? Ridiculous!

Again, you are positing that there are two creators, one that created the heavens and Earth, as an empty sort of containers, and one who filled those containers with stuff! Isaiah 44 and 45, referenced in my last post, refute that assertion!

Doug
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You need to understand that the creation of the heavens and the earth are different from the creation of laws in heaven and on earth. Look up thrones, powers and principalities.
 
Nathan P said:
You refuted nothing because it is talking about things in heaven and on earth and not the heaven and the earth. Isaiah 44 and 45 are talking about the creation itself and not what was created after they were created. Jesus creates things in heaven and on earth and the Father created the heaven and the earth and he Jesus) creates the thrones, powers and so forth in and on heaven and earth.

Prove it it is talking about the whole of creation there and not what was created in heaven and on earth?
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John 1:3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Paul is reinterating what John has previously stated. Through the Word that became flesh, "all things were made" and "without him" nothing that has been made/created was made! Isaiah says that Yahweh alone is responsible for the whole of creation :

This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself..." (Isa 44:24) And again, "It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isa 45:12)

Isaiah says that both the earth and the things on earth, ie mankind, and the heavens and the things in the heavens, ie the starry hosts, were made by the hands of the singular creator alone!

Doug
 
Nathan P said:
You are not paying attention. Col. 1 is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the heaven(s) and the earth being created. Gen 1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Or they did not exist until God created them. Again at Col. 1 it is talking about thrones, principalities and powers and not the the heaven(s) and the earth being created because it says whether they be thrones, powers or principalities. Or the best way to describe them would be the power for like people on earth to govern is my best guess.
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God ALONE created ALL thrones, principalities, and powers.
 
TibiasDad said:
John 1:3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Paul is reinterating what John has previously stated. Through the Word that became flesh, "all things were made" and "without him" nothing that has been made/created was made! Isaiah says that Yahweh alone is responsible for the whole of creation :

This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself..." (Isa 44:24) And again, "It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." (Isa 45:12)

Isaiah says that both the earth and the things on earth, ie mankind, and the heavens and the things in the heavens, ie the starry hosts, were made by the hands of the singular creator alone!

Doug
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It is typical you only type out what you want. Go to post 718 and click on the version that is there and if you had not stopped so it says what you want it to say you will see it says "through him all things were made in heaven and on earth". It is talking about the things made there in heaven and on earth and it is not talking about the heaven and the earth being created there.
 
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