Col. 1 Is Not About The Genesis Creation - Change My Mind

[Caroljeen]

You might want to read again my original post, I don’t think you understand the argument.

Explain what you are talking about then. I don't think Col 1 and Eph 1 are saying the same thing. There are some similarities but that's all it is.

In Ephesians, this section is concerning with after the resurrection. Col 1 is not.

In context:
Eph 1: 19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

The similarities- Jesus is first when it comes to rule and authority. Jesus is first over the church.
There is nothing about creation in this passage.

​

 

[JNelson]

Explain what you are talking about then. I don't think Col 1 and Eph 1 are saying the same thing. There are some similarities but that's all it is.

In Ephesians, this section is concerning with after the resurrection. Col 1 is not.

That’s why I paired them verses in the original post because just about everything written in Col 1 is also written in Eph 1, I t’s not just ‘some similarities’.

 

[BJ Bear]

If we simply compare what Paul wrote in Eph 1 and Col 1 there’s no denying he’s writing about the same thing in both epistles. Both take place after the resurrection, not the genesis creation. Here are just some of the many similarities and note that with a couple exceptions, they flow in almost exactly the same order:

Eph. 1:16 “I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers”
Col. 1:9 “we have not ceased to pray for you”

Eph. 1:16 “may give you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him”
Col. 1:9 “may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding”

Eph. 1:18 “what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints”
Col. 1:12 “to share in the inheritance of the saints in light”

Eph. 1:19 “the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might”
Col. 1:11 “being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might”

Eph. 1:20 “when he raised him from the dead”
Col. 1:15/18 “the firstborn of all creation” / “the firstborn from the dead”

Eph. 1:10 “to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth ”
Col. 1:16 “for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth” (The Greek word εν should be translated as in not by)

Eph. 1:21 “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion”
Col. 1:16 “whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities”

Eph. 1:22 “and he put all things under his feet”
Col. 1:17 “and he is before (above) all things”


Eph. 1:22 “and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body”
Col. 1:18 “and he is the head of the body, the church”

Eph. 1:23 “the fullness of him who fills all in all”
Col. 1:19 “for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”

Even the immediate paragraph following begins extremely similar:

Eph. 2:1 “and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked”
Col. 1:21 “and you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds”

So its quite clear Paul isn’t saying Jesus is the genesis creator in Col 1 but rather he is talking about his exaltation after the resurrection. The evidence is honestly overwhelming but you’re welcome to change my mind…

The above is an illogical approach to interpreting Scripture because the form of a letter doesn't indicate the substantive content of a letter. The comparisons made are irrelevant.

 

[JNelson]

The above is an illogical approach to interpreting Scripture because the form of a letter doesn't indicate the substantive content of a letter. The comparisons made are irrelevant.

The content is the same hence the comparisons.

 

[Caroljeen]

That’s why I paired them verses in the original post because just about everything written in Col 1 is also written in Eph 1, I t’s not just ‘some similarities’.

Well, I'm too tired tonight to pursue this tonight. Maybe I'll look at your OP again tomorrow with 2 Bibles open so I can compare. Because how you laid it out in your OP is out of order and context. The point you are trying to make doesn't make sense when I read the passages as a whole.

 

[BJ Bear]

The content is the same hence the comparisons.

That is more nonsense because if the content were the same then you wouldn't have had to pick and choose passages out of context.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

why even bother with this?

Chuckle!!! - I didn't.

 

[JNelson]

Chuckle!!! - I didn't.

You commented and that’s what I meant. But since you want to stick around, not one trinitarian has been able to refute the argument so you’re welcome to try.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You commented and that’s what I meant. But since you want to stick around, not one trinitarian has been able to refute the argument so you’re welcome to try.

WHy even bother. Your mind is made up, and it's not a salvific issue - just "Theology". All God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

 

[JNelson]

WHy even bother. Your mind is made up, and it's not a salvific issue - just "Theology". All God's Chilluns gots "Theologies".

My mind is only made up when convinced by scriptures. I was born and raised (both physically and spiritually) in a trinitarian church.

 

[shnarkle]

If we simply compare what Paul wrote in Eph 1 and Col 1 there’s no denying he’s writing about the same thing in both epistles. Both take place after the resurrection, not the genesis creation. Here are just some of the many similarities and note that with a couple exceptions, they flow in almost exactly the same order:

Eph. 1:16 “I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers”
Col. 1:9 “we have not ceased to pray for you”

Eph. 1:16 “may give you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him”
Col. 1:9 “may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding”

Eph. 1:18 “what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints”
Col. 1:12 “to share in the inheritance of the saints in light”

Eph. 1:19 “the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might”
Col. 1:11 “being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might”

Eph. 1:20 “when he raised him from the dead”
Col. 1:15/18 “the firstborn of all creation” / “the firstborn from the dead”

Eph. 1:10 “to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth ”
Col. 1:16 “for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth” (The Greek word εν should be translated as in not by)

Eph. 1:21 “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion”
Col. 1:16 “whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities”

Eph. 1:22 “and he put all things under his feet”
Col. 1:17 “and he is before (above) all things”


Eph. 1:22 “and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body”
Col. 1:18 “and he is the head of the body, the church”

Eph. 1:23 “the fullness of him who fills all in all”
Col. 1:19 “for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”

Even the immediate paragraph following begins extremely similar:

Eph. 2:1 “and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked”
Col. 1:21 “and you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds”

So its quite clear Paul isn’t saying Jesus is the genesis creator in Col 1 but rather he is talking about his exaltation after the resurrection. The evidence is honestly overwhelming but you’re welcome to change my mind…

As far as you post goes, this is clearly the case. However, it doesn't then follow that Christ is not the means by which everything came into existence. If I'm reading your post correctly, you're not saying that Christ isn't the creator, you're just pointing out that these passaged cited by Paul are not prooftexts for Christ as creator.

 

[JNelson]

As far as you post goes, this is clearly the case. However, it doesn't then follow that Christ is not the means by which everything came into existence. If I'm reading your post correctly, you're not saying that Christ isn't the creator, you're just pointing out that these passaged cited by Paul are not prooftexts for Christ as creator.

I don’t believe Jesus is the genesis creator but yes. you’re correct, my argument here is that Col. 1 specifically is not about the genesis creation.

 

[shnarkle]

I don’t believe Jesus is the genesis creator but yes. you’re correct, my argument here is that Col. 1 specifically is not about the genesis creation.

I wouldn't say that Jesus is the Genesis creator either The Word is the means by which everything is created, and that is Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[JNelson]

I wouldn't say that Jesus is the Genesis creator either The Word is the means by which everything is created,

I agree with you here as we also see in psalms 33:6

and that is Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6

I don’t agree here though. When it says all things are through Christ I take it as Christ being the means by which we obtain all things.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

If we simply compare what Paul wrote in Eph 1 and Col 1 there’s no denying he’s writing about the same thing in both epistles. Both take place after the resurrection, not the genesis creation. Here are just some of the many similarities and note that with a couple exceptions, they flow in almost exactly the same order:

Eph. 1:16 “I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers”
Col. 1:9 “we have not ceased to pray for you”

Eph. 1:16 “may give you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him”
Col. 1:9 “may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding”

Eph. 1:18 “what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints”
Col. 1:12 “to share in the inheritance of the saints in light”

Eph. 1:19 “the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might”
Col. 1:11 “being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might”

Eph. 1:20 “when he raised him from the dead”
Col. 1:15/18 “the firstborn of all creation” / “the firstborn from the dead”

Eph. 1:10 “to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth ”
Col. 1:16 “for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth” (The Greek word εν should be translated as in not by)

Eph. 1:21 “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion”
Col. 1:16 “whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities”

Eph. 1:22 “and he put all things under his feet”
Col. 1:17 “and he is before (above) all things”


Eph. 1:22 “and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body”
Col. 1:18 “and he is the head of the body, the church”

Eph. 1:23 “the fullness of him who fills all in all”
Col. 1:19 “for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”

Even the immediate paragraph following begins extremely similar:

Eph. 2:1 “and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked”
Col. 1:21 “and you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds”

So its quite clear Paul isn’t saying Jesus is the genesis creator in Col 1 but rather he is talking about his exaltation after the resurrection. The evidence is honestly overwhelming but you’re welcome to change my mind…

Excellent observations JN and I agree 100% also, for if we read the full context of chapter one especially, we see that what is created in Christ is also what is reconciled and this is where many miss the point of what Paul is revealing in this chapter of Colossians 1, for he is speaking of the New Creation and not the Genesis creation


Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


Behold I make all things new says the Lord.

 

[Caroljeen]

That’s why I paired them verses in the original post because just about everything written in Col 1 is also written in Eph 1, I t’s not just ‘some similarities’.

The biggest difference between the two passages that pertains to what you are doing is that in the Ephesians passage Paul is talking about the present time. Jesus is on the throne of heaven. Paul is talking about "now" is Jesus powerfully ruling. Paul isn't speaking about creation in this passage at all. So even though there are some similarities, the important one about creation which happened in the past isn't part of this Ephesians passage. The comparison in that respect is mute and so is your conclusion.

Eph 1: 19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself. NLT

 

[shnarkle]

I agree with you here as we also see in psalms 33:6

I don’t agree here though. When it says all things are through Christ I take it as Christ being the means by which we obtain all things.

Here's what Paul says, "there is but one God the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."

All things exist through Christ, but there is nothing to indicate this as a means of attaining or obtaining them as those peddling the "prosperity gospel" like to say.

" life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth." Luke 12:15

 

[JNelson]

Here's what Paul says, "there is but one God the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."

All things exist through Christ, but there is nothing to indicate this as a means of attaining or obtaining them as those peddling the "prosperity gospel" like to say.

" life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth." Luke 12:15

I didn’t mean it in regards to earthly possessions but in regards to our spiritual blessings and eternal inheritance which scriptures teach is through Christ.

 

[JNelson]

The biggest difference between the two passages that pertains to what you are doing is that in the Ephesians passage Paul is talking about the present time. Jesus is on the throne of heaven. Paul is talking about "now" is Jesus powerfully ruling. Paul isn't speaking about creation in this passage at all. So even though there are some similarities, the important one about creation which happened in the past isn't part of this Ephesians passage. The comparison in that respect is mute and so is your conclusion.

Eph 1: 19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself. NLT

The creation spoken of is being misunderstood in Col 1. that’s why it’s paired with Eph. 1:10 because Paul is not talking about the genesis creation but rather the new creation which is summed (literally brought together) up in Christ.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

The biggest difference between the two passages that pertains to what you are doing is that in the Ephesians passage Paul is talking about the present time. Jesus is on the throne of heaven. Paul is talking about "now" is Jesus powerfully ruling. Paul isn't speaking about creation in this passage at all. So even though there are some similarities, the important one about creation which happened in the past isn't part of this Ephesians passage. The comparison in that respect is mute and so is your conclusion.

Eph 1: 19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself. NLT

Have you not noticed, the similarity in Colossians 1 with what was created and what was reconciled from the old creation?

Here compare it yourself, for JN is correct, this is about the New Creation in Christ Jesus and which came from the reconciliation that Jesus provided on the cross.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.