Colossians 1:15

SteveB

Well-known member
Ok. May as well get this started.

According to Colossians 1:15, Jesus is the firstborn

Col 1:15 WEB He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

From the nwt

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

In the Greek the word used for firstborn is prototokos.

My question is

Since when does firstborn mean first created?
 

Nondenom40

Active member
Ok. May as well get this started.

According to Colossians 1:15, Jesus is the firstborn

Col 1:15 WEB He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

From the nwt

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

In the Greek the word used for firstborn is prototokos.

My question is

Since when does firstborn mean first created?
It doesn't. I've used this many times. There is another word for first created. First born in this context has nothing to do with being born in any capacity.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I'm agreeing with you. Firstborn in the greek does not mean first created.
Ah.....
Ok.
I know this..... but I'm hoping a JW/WTS-er will show up, and explain to me how they come up with this passage meaning that Jesus is the first created.... I began asking this question in 2009, when one told me this, and it dawned on me what was taking place....
None of have been able to.
 

robycop3

Active member
Know where the JW "bible' comes from ? I'll tellya !

In 1950, 2 JWs, Freddie Franz(who later became big kahoona of the watchtower) & George gangas, a Greek Cypriot, sat down with the British RV of 1881, as it wasn't a popular translation in the US, & re-worded it to fit JW false doctrine. Thus, The Word became "a" god in John 1:1. They called their mess the "New Worls Translation". Franz admitted in a Scottish court that he didn't know any Hebrew.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Know where the JW "bible' comes from ? I'll tellya !

In 1950, 2 JWs, Freddie Franz(who later became big kahoona of the watchtower) & George gangas, a Greek Cypriot, sat down with the British RV of 1881, as it wasn't a popular translation in the US, & re-worded it to fit JW false doctrine. Thus, The Word became "a" god in John 1:1. They called their mess the "New Worls Translation". Franz admitted in a Scottish court that he didn't know any Hebrew.
The irony is..... they missed so much when they rewrote the bible.
John 1:3 states that the Logos of God created everything, and without him--- nothing that exists, could exist.
They missed Hebrews 1:2-4,
Jesus created everything, and holds it all together by the word of his power.
Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:16-19,

they missed Titus statements regarding how God, and Jesus BOTH are Savior (one instance of each, in each chapter), and they missed Isaiah 43:10-11, and Hosea 13:4 how that YHVH and YHVH alone is Savior.
It goes on, and on, and on.....
 
Ok. May as well get this started.

According to Colossians 1:15, Jesus is the firstborn

Col 1:15 WEB He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

From the nwt

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

In the Greek the word used for firstborn is prototokos.

My question is

Since when does firstborn mean first created?
It is referring to Jesus resurrection is it not?

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It is referring to Jesus resurrection is it not?

God bless you,

SeventhDay
As we're always talking about context, and they never place it in its context, here's the context.

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Reconciled in Christ​

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


So, is it referring to the resurrection of Jesus?
That is contained withing the context. But that's not the ONLY thing its referring to.
 
As we're always talking about context, and they never place it in its context, here's the context.

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Reconciled in Christ​

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


So, is it referring to the resurrection of Jesus?
That is contained withing the context. But that's not the ONLY thing its referring to.
Thanks. Please explain more as the Spirit of God guides you. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Thanks. Please explain more as the Spirit of God guides you. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Well, the idea is pretty simple apparently.
JW's claim that Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus is a created being.
I've asked them, for 11 years now, since when does firstborn mean first created.
I've only ever gotten crickets warming up for their evening symphonies as responses.
In 2010 an elderly JW and his wife were working our neighborhood, and stopped by one Saturday morning, while I was working in the garage.
As we talked, he raised this issue. I asked him---- since when does firstborn become first created?
HE stumbled over it, and tried getting around it, but I kept pulling him back to it.
He finally admitted he had not idea. So, I asked him--- please go back to your leadership, and ask them to explain it to you so you can come back and explain it to me. I then told him--- you see that car. If it's parked there, I'm home. I'll be here on Saturdays, so come back in three or four weeks with an answer.

He never returned. As a matter of fact, they avoided me like the plague, and would no longer stop by my house.

A few years ago I was driving into do some shopping at my local Walmart, and I saw that guy, now alone, much older, and in a wheelchair. He had a JW pamphlet, so I parked my car, walked back, and started talking to him. I reminded him of the question I'd asked, and the incident.
So, I asked him again, and his only response was--- that's a good question. I don't know.
At that point, I shared the gospel with him, and told him--- Jesus loves you.
His response was-- I hope so.

I've decided since that this is a questions that needs answering--- by JW's.
I have no idea what the guy's name was, but as I'm reminded I pray for him, knowing his time is soon, if not already passed. I haven't seen him since.
 
Is the son of man a creation who is called the Son of God. Is this son who is Spirit conceived in Mary's womb and the Spirit foreshadowing her womb and thus the Holy child and humanly birthed a human creation. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

e v e

Active member
well even if off about it, which most are, at least they mention the 144k. most do not ever.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
well even if off about it, which most are, at least they mention the 144k. most do not ever.
Only problem with just saying 144k, according to Revelation, those are from the 12 tribes of Israel and are virgin males, who have not known a woman.

They're not from some nondescript people group.
 
Only problem with just saying 144k, according to Revelation, those are from the 12 tribes of Israel and are virgin males, who have not known a woman.

They're not from some nondescript people group.
I hope you understand when to take scriptures figuratively! :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I hope you understand when to take scriptures figuratively! :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Have you ever actually read the old testament?

There are 404 verses in Revelation.
There are over 800 allusions to the old testament contained in the text of Revelation.
 
Have you ever actually read the old testament?

There are 404 verses in Revelation.
There are over 800 allusions to the old testament contained in the text of Revelation.
You do under stand that the book of Revelation which is the unveiling of Christ in us is mainly figurative?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
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