Colossians 1:15

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Remember Jesus only became the Logos when he became incarnate and that means only when he was human was he identified as the Logos according to wiki when you type in on Google Logos and click encrpyted search and go down and read about Logos on wiki.
The Logos became Jesus at the incarnation. As usual, out have things backwards!

Doug
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Just deal with the question and that is since the life in the him is Jesus, then how can the him be Jesus too? No you should read the rest and what you just quoted at John 1:14 says the Word became flesh and only then is there a documented Son of God. Or there was no Jesus until after the Word became flesh
Seriously, read the rest of the bible.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No I have the wiki article to back me up and it says only after he is incarnate is Jesus identified as the logos.

And we have the Bible to prove otherwise. We don't need wiki to prove or disprove anything. The Logos became flesh and only then was known as Jesus. The Logos prexisted the man Jesus, and was first in the order of the names of Jesus the man according to John's purposes. His actual first nom de plume was Yahweh who spoke the world into existence! (Gen 1:1, John 1:3, 8:58, Heb 1:2, and, of course, Col 1:15-16)

That Jesus is revealed to have been the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation after the fact of the resurrection is not to say that Jesus didn't identify as the Logos until after becoming flesh.


Doug
 

Nathan P

Member
And we have the Bible to prove otherwise. We don't need wiki to prove or disprove anything. The Logos became flesh and only then was known as Jesus. The Logos prexisted the man Jesus, and was first in the order of the names of Jesus the man according to John's purposes. His actual first nom de plume was Yahweh who spoke the world into existence! (Gen 1:1, John 1:3, 8:58, Heb 1:2, and, of course, Col 1:15-16)

That Jesus is revealed to have been the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation after the fact of the resurrection is not to say that Jesus didn't identify as the Logos until after becoming flesh.


Doug
And we have the Bible to prove otherwise. We don't need wiki to prove or disprove anything. The Logos became flesh and only then was known as Jesus. The Logos prexisted the man Jesus, and was first in the order of the names of Jesus the man according to John's purposes. His actual first nom de plume was Yahweh who spoke the world into existence! (Gen 1:1, John 1:3, 8:58, Heb 1:2, and, of course, Col 1:15-16)

That Jesus is revealed to have been the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation after the fact of the resurrection is not to say that Jesus didn't identify as the Logos until after becoming flesh.


Doug
And we have the Bible to prove otherwise. We don't need wiki to prove or disprove anything. The Logos became flesh and only then was known as Jesus. The Logos prexisted the man Jesus, and was first in the order of the names of Jesus the man according to John's purposes. His actual first nom de plume was Yahweh who spoke the world into existence! (Gen 1:1, John 1:3, 8:58, Heb 1:2, and, of course, Col 1:15-16)

That Jesus is revealed to have been the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation after the fact of the resurrection is not to say that Jesus didn't identify as the Logos until after becoming flesh.


Doug
 

Nathan P

Member
It is impossible for Jesus to have been the eternal Logos because according to the gospel of John Jesus is the incarnate Logos or after he was in human form. Let me see some evidence and not just you saying he was the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation? Remember it identifies the Christian Logos through which all things were made as divine Theos.
 

Nathan P

Member
The Logos became Jesus at the incarnation. As usual, out have things backwards!

Doug
No you have it backwards. It says Jesus is identified as the incarnate Logos. Only when he is human is he identified as the Logos. Meaning the first Logos who is the creator could not have been Jesus.
 

Nathan P

Member
Seriously, read the rest of the bible.
If you had scriptures to prove there is a documented Son of God before the Word became flesh you would gladly provide them. For a fact there has only been a Son of God for the last 2,000 or so years.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If you had scriptures to prove there is a documented Son of God before the Word became flesh you would gladly provide them. For a fact there has only been a Son of God for the last 2,000 or so years.
So you haven't read the entire bible?

Even the book of Hebrews deals with this.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No it does not. It is up to you to prove there has been a Son of God for longer than the last 2,000 or so years?
Hebrews 1

God’s Supreme Revelation​
(cf. John 1:1–4 )​
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​
The Son Exalted Above Angels​
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You” ? (Psalm 2)​
And again:​
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son” ? (2 Samuel 7)​
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.” (Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalm 97:7)
7 And of the angels He says:​
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.” (Psalm 104:4
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6-7)
10 And:​
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.” (Psalm 102:25-27
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ? (Psalm 110:1)​
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

Seriously.... READ THE BIBLE.

It's stated in Psalm 40

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
 

Nathan P

Member
Hebrews 1

God’s Supreme Revelation​
(cf. John 1:1–4 )​

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​
The Son Exalted Above Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You” ? (Psalm 2)​
And again:​
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son” ? (2 Samuel 7)​
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.” (Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalm 97:7)
7 And of the angels He says:​
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.” (Psalm 104:4
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6-7)
10 And:​
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.” (Psalm 102:25-27
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ? (Psalm 110:1)​
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

Seriously.... READ THE BIBLE.

It's stated in Psalm 40

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
How many times do we have to go over this before you remember what you were told? The ones speaking there are humans and since they only knew Jesus as the Son they have to refer to him in the present tense and that is the Son who they know him by. They can not refer to him as the Word because he was not the Word when they knew him.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How many times do we have to go over this before you remember what you were told? The ones speaking there are humans and since they only knew Jesus as the Son they have to refer to him in the present tense and that is the Son who they know him by. They can not refer to him as the Word because he was not the Word when they knew him.
ah....
So, you alone know everything, and YHVH is a liar.
Got it.
 

Nathan P

Member
ah....
So, you alone know everything, and YHVH is a liar.
Got it.
I am smart enough to know when someone has to be referred to in the present tense. For example if someone named Fred legally changed his name to Mike and since we only knew him as Mike we would refer to him as Mike correct?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I am smart enough to know when someone has to be referred to in the present tense. For example if someone named Fred legally changed his name to Mike and since we only knew him as Mike we would refer to him as Mike correct?
that's simple.

YHVH was, IS, and Is to come.
Jesus was, IS, and Is to Come.


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Isaiah 41:4
Who has performed this and carried it out, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD--the first and the last--I am He."

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts: "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God but Me.

Revelation 1:4
John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spirits before His throne,

Revelation 4:8
And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

Revelation 11:17
saying: "We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was; You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

Revelation 15:3
and they sang the song of God's servant Moses and of the Lamb: "Great and wonderful are Your works, O Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Revelation 16:7
And I heard the altar reply: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are Your judgments."

Revelation 19:6
And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.

Revelation 21:6
And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 21:22
But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
It is impossible for Jesus to have been the eternal Logos because according to the gospel of John Jesus is the incarnate Logos or after he was in human form. Let me see some evidence and not just you saying he was the eternal Logos prior to the incarnation? Remember it identifies the Christian Logos through which all things were made as divine Theos.
The simple point is, that the Logos and Jesus are the same personage. The Logos became flesh and in this earthy realm is known or call by the name Jesus. I have a screen/virtual name, TibiasDad, and an legal name Doug, but both are the same person. The pre-incarnate name is Logos, and the post-incarnate is Jesus. It is the same personage.

Doug aka TibiasDad
 

Nathan P

Member
Hebrews 1

God’s Supreme Revelation​
(cf. John 1:1–4 )​

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​
The Son Exalted Above Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You” ? (Psalm 2)​
And again:​
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son” ? (2 Samuel 7)​
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.” (Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalm 97:7)
7 And of the angels He says:​
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.” (Psalm 104:4
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6-7)
10 And:​
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.” (Psalm 102:25-27
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ? (Psalm 110:1)​
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

Seriously.... READ THE BIBLE.

It's stated in Psalm 40

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
None of that proves Jesus has been around longer than about 2,000 years. In fact heb. 1:5 says today you have become my Son. Meaning on a certain day Jesus became the Son.
 

Nathan P

Member
The simple point is, that the Logos and Jesus are the same personage. The Logos became flesh and in this earthy realm is known or call by the name Jesus. I have a screen/virtual name, TibiasDad, and an legal name Doug, but both are the same person. The pre-incarnate name is Logos, and the post-incarnate is Jesus. It is the same personage.

Doug aka TibiasDad
No they are not the same because the Word became flesh or there was a change. You have nothing to prove solidly there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh. Show me something solid other than making it say what you want it to say.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No they are not the same because the Word became flesh or there was a change. You have nothing to prove solidly there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh. Show me something solid other than making it say what you want it to say.
There was not a change of person, there was a change of the circumstance of the person, and a change of name for the person, but there was not a change of person. And you've moved the goalpost, there has never been anything about "there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh"! It was always about Jesus being called the Logos.

Doug
 

Nathan P

Member
There was not a change of person, there was a change of the circumstance of the person, and a change of name for the person, but there was not a change of person. And you've moved the goalpost, there has never been anything about "there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh"! It was always about Jesus being called the Logos.

Doug
It never says Jesus was called the logos. It says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. Nowhere is a Son of God documented until after the Word became flesh. You can not and never will be able to clearly document there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh Notice they were told to call him Jesus when he was born on earth. That is the first documented part where there is a Son of God called Jesus.
 
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