"Coming", but how and when?

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
OK... Let me try to convince you from a different angle. As I read through Revelation 22, I realized that there are two parts to 22. Context is always important. Just reading one verse or two doesn't necessarily give the true context of the passage. The first part of 22 discusses the River of Life, which I believe is future.

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

The second part of 22 reverts back to John in his present looking forward to the coming judgement John wrote of at the beginning of the Revelation. The passage is again stressing the future coming of Christ and his judgement in 70 AD of Israel.

6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
So, I assume that you have ch 21 in the future (new heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem,...)

So could it be fair to say that perhaps whoever divided the chapters should have included 22:1-6 in chapter 21? It was just a passing thought.

So....

Verse 12: "I am coming soon.'
Verse 20: "Surely I am coming soon."

Verse 17: The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." Where did the Bride come from in 70 AD? The Bride becomes the Bride in 19:7 when the Marriage Supper takes place (ch 19, future); in 21:2,9 when New Jerusalem, the Bride, descends out of heaven...."Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!"
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
So, I assume that you have ch 21 in the future (new heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem,...)

So could it be fair to say that perhaps whoever divided the chapters should have included 22:1-6 in chapter 21? It was just a passing thought.

So....

Verse 12: "I am coming soon.'
Verse 20: "Surely I am coming soon."

Verse 17: The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." Where did the Bride come from in 70 AD? The Bride becomes the Bride in 19:7 when the Marriage Supper takes place (ch 19, future); in 21:2,9 when New Jerusalem, the Bride, descends out of heaven...."Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!"
The bride has always existed since there were believers with a right-relationship with YHWH.

I started out strong... Got rocked... Got ticked... Made a mistake... Got back on track... I think I have now answered you appropriately...

I stand by the Time Texts...

But I have to say, this discussion made me review other things that I believe and made me re-think them. This is regards to God and how time is used in scripture. I had to apply a consistent hermeneutic across the board...
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
The bride has always existed since there were believers with a right-relationship with YHWH.
Show me. Not a bride until the Marriage Supper. And verses like "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church" don't cut it.

I agree that the Church will be the Bride of Christ. That is coming. She is "made ready as a bride adorned" in Rev 21 when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

I started out strong... Got rocked... Got ticked... Made a mistake... Got back on track... I think I have now answered you appropriately...
The Bears said that last year. ;)

I stand by the Time Texts...
We all have error. (And even a clock is right twice a day! :sneaky: )

But I have to say, this discussion made me review other things that I believe and made me re-think them. This is regards to God and how time is used in scripture. I had to apply a consistent hermeneutic across the board...
I already showed you where your time texts fall apart. You refuse to see. (Hint (again): you don't need "will shortly come to pass" to attempt to prove Preterism; time texts are your weak link.)
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Show me. Not a bride until the Marriage Supper. And verses like "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church" don't cut it.

I agree that the Church will be the Bride of Christ. That is coming. She is "made ready as a bride adorned" in Rev 21 when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.
Jeremiah 31:32
English Standard Version
32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.

Isaiah 54:5
English Standard Version
5 For your Maker is your husband,
the Lord of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.

Jeremiah 3:20
English Standard Version
20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband,
so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel,
declares the Lord.’”

Ezekiel 16:32-34
English Standard Version
32 Adulterous wife, who receives strangers instead of her husband! 33 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. 34 So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different.

John 3:29
English Standard Version
29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.

2 Corinthians 11:2
English Standard Version
2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

I can give you at least two dozen more.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Hebrews 10:25
English Standard Version
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

What day are the recipients going to see? Day is capitalized. Must be important. And they are expected to see it. I assume the primary recipients are Jews...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
James 5:7-9
English Standard Version
Patience in Suffering
7 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. 8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

James is clear here. He mentions is three times in three verses. Help me... How is this not soon??
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
1 Peter 4:7
English Standard Version
7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

Peter seems to be onboard with James...
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Suddenly the ESV is your go-to?

Jeremiah 31:32
English Standard Version
32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.
(NET)
It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.

'Like' is not 'is'. But there's bigger issues with your verse choice here.

(YLT)
Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah.

Literal doesn't even mention a husband. (Note how it say "I ruled over" -- that's important.)

Isaiah 54:5
English Standard Version
5 For your Maker is your husband,
the Lord of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
This is your best verse choice, but it doesn't mean what you say it does. And the meaning isn't some hidden decoder ring thing (like the decoder ring you reformist have). Simple Hebrew definitions will suffice; see below.

Jeremiah 3:20
English Standard Version
20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband,
so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel,
declares the Lord.’”
"Such as". No, this doesn't work.

Ezekiel 16:32-34
English Standard Version
32 Adulterous wife, who receives strangers instead of her husband! 33 Men give gifts to all prostitutes, but you gave your gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from every side with your whorings. 34 So you were different from other women in your whorings. No one solicited you to play the whore, and you gave payment, while no payment was given to you; therefore you were different.
Can we move forward? I noticed that you left Hosea out.

In all of your OT verses, any use of husband is the word "Baal." It loosely means husband, but not a loving, caring husband. Rather it is a taskmaster, someone who rules over, owns. Let's see how God says it.

In Hosea we have:

Hosea 2:14-16
14 “However, in the future I will allure her;​
I will lead her back into the wilderness,​
and speak tenderly to her.​
15 From there I will give back her vineyards to her,​
and turn the ‘Valley of Trouble’ into an ‘Opportunity for Hope.’​
There she will sing as she did when she was young,​
when she came up from the land of Egypt.​
16 At that time,” declares the Lord,​
“you will call, ‘My husband’;​
you will never again call me, ‘My master.’

We have several things going on here.
Verse 14 says that this will happen "in the future." It is not in occurrence now.
Verse 16 says that (in the future) when this happens Israel will call the Lord "My husband."

Well what were they to the Lord in all the verses you quoted?? God says they properly called him "My master."

I think I'll go with what God says over what you say.


John 3:29
English Standard Version
29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete.
Yes, but what Jesus is describing is his coming to set up his bride. There is no marriage yet. As God said in Hosea, that is future (see Rev 21).

2 Corinthians 11:2
English Standard Version
2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
Joe, "betrothed" means engaged. Not married. The marriage is in the future. (see Rev 21). When I was going to (and haven't yet) married my wife, I was the bridegroom and she was the bride, preparing for the ceremony, betrothed, but not yet married.

I can give you at least two dozen more.
I'm sure you can, but can you take your blinders off first? Read it in light of Hosea. God defined the whole bride thing there.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Suddenly the ESV is your go-to?

(NET)
It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.

'Like' is not 'is'. But there's bigger issues with your verse choice here.

(YLT)
Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah.

Literal doesn't even mention a husband. (Note how it say "I ruled over" -- that's important.)


This is your best verse choice, but it doesn't mean what you say it does. And the meaning isn't some hidden decoder ring thing (like the decoder ring you reformist have). Simple Hebrew definitions will suffice; see below.

"Such as". No, this doesn't work.

Can we move forward? I noticed that you left Hosea out.

In all of your OT verses, any use of husband is the word "Baal." It loosely means husband, but not a loving, caring husband. Rather it is a taskmaster, someone who rules over, owns. Let's see how God says it.

In Hosea we have:

Hosea 2:14-16
14 “However, in the future I will allure her;​
I will lead her back into the wilderness,​
and speak tenderly to her.​
15 From there I will give back her vineyards to her,​
and turn the ‘Valley of Trouble’ into an ‘Opportunity for Hope.’​
There she will sing as she did when she was young,​
when she came up from the land of Egypt.​
16 At that time,” declares the Lord,​
“you will call, ‘My husband’;​
you will never again call me, ‘My master.’

We have several things going on here.
Verse 14 says that this will happen "in the future." It is not in occurrence now.
Verse 16 says that (in the future) when this happens Israel will call the Lord "My husband."

Well what were they to the Lord in all the verses you quoted?? God says they properly called him "My master."

I think I'll go with what God says over what you say.

Yes, but what Jesus is describing is his coming to set up his bride. There is no marriage yet. As God said in Hosea, that is future (see Rev 21).

Joe, "betrothed" means engaged. Not married. The marriage is in the future. (see Rev 21). When I was going to (and haven't yet) married my wife, I was the bridegroom and she was the bride, preparing for the ceremony, betrothed, but not yet married.

I'm sure you can, but can you take your blinders off first? Read it in light of Hosea. God defined the whole bride thing there.

I decided to quote a Dispensational Christian Site

One of the ways in which God assures His people of His love for them is to describe Himself as their husband. For example, the prophet says to Judah, “Your Maker is your husband—the LORD Almighty is his name—the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth” (Isaiah 54:5; cf. Jeremiah 3:14; 31:32).

Israel often proved to be an unfaithful spouse, committing spiritual adultery by worshiping false gods and forsaking the Lord. In fact, it was due to idolatry that God spoke this word:

“I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. . . . Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense” (Jeremiah 3:8–10).

In this passage, God warns Judah against making the same mistakes that Israel, their neighbors to the north, had made. In their idolatry, Israel had polluted the land and broken their covenant with God. Due to the enormity of their sin, God punished Israel, and He illustrates that punishment like this: He “divorced” Israel and sent them away—a reference to the Assyrian invasion, which resulted in Israel’s removal from their homeland (see 2 Kings 17:5–7). Even given the example of Israel’s “divorce,” Judah remained unfaithful, as if daring God to mete out a similar punishment on them.

Having just cause, God, the faithful Husband, “divorced” Israel, His unfaithful wife. To make matters worse, God had asked, “If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again?” (Jeremiah 3:1). The answer, according to the Mosaic Law, was “no”; a man who had divorced his wife could not later remarry her (Deuteronomy 24:1–4). According to God’s metaphor, Israel seems to be in a hopeless situation: she has been divorced by God, and, according to the law, she can never be accepted back.

But then comes a surprising twist: God’s mercy intervenes:

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever’” (Jeremiah 3:12).

In the same passage in which God sets up a scenario of hopelessness for Israel, He invites His people to “return” to Him and promises that His anger will end. Could it be that God’s love is stronger than His people’s rebellion? The Lord doubles down on His invitation:

“‘Return, faithless people,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I am your husband. I will choose you . . . and bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14).

God promises to do what the Mosaic Law could never do: restore the broken “marriage.” It was unthinkable that a human husband would take back his unfaithful wife, but God is greater than that; He can and will forgive His wayward people when they repent of their sin and seek Him again (Jeremiah 3:13).

God used the shocking illustration of a “divorce” of Israel to stress their guilt before Him. But God never cut Israel off unilaterally for all time. He only asked that they return to Him and experience His goodness. In fact, after God says that He “divorced” Israel, He commands them three times to “return” (Jeremiah 3:11, 14, 23).

The apostle Paul explains, “Did God reject his people? By no means! . . . God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. . . . At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. . . . Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! . . . And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:1–6, 11, 23).

Another illustration of God’s amazing goodness is found in the story of the prophet Hosea. God actually commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). She did not remain faithful to Hosea. Then, while his wife was living in immorality, the Lord commanded Hosea to find her and buy her back. God’s purpose was to show the greatness of His grace: “Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods” (Hosea 3:1).

Hosea’s grace toward his unfaithful wife is a model of God’s grace toward His unfaithful people. Israel had been chosen and loved by God, yet they were unfaithful to Him by way of idolatry. In Jeremiah 3, God gives them a “bill of divorcement,” but then He pleads with them to come back. In Hosea, God pursues and redeems His estranged “wife” and seeks to continue His relationship with her. Both stories provide an unforgettable picture of God’s strong, unending love for His covenant people.

How can a divorced wife return and be restored? The law forbade it, but “mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:13), and God still has a plan for Israel. God’s grace in the New Covenant provided restoration for all who would believe in Christ.

Once, the incredulous disciples asked Jesus, “Who can be saved?” Jesus assured them that salvation is based on God’s power and grace, not man’s efforts: “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).


Good-bye Darth

 

Tallen

Well-known member
“Jesus said, "I was sent only to the people of Israel! They are like a flock of lost sheep."” (Matthew 15:24, CEV)
 

Drax

New Member
“Jesus said, "I was sent only to the people of Israel! They are like a flock of lost sheep."” (Matthew 15:24, CEV)
Jesus only preached to the Jews, to Israel. He didn't preached to the Gentile. That was Paul and the rest of the Apostle's job.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Matthew 24:30
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Acts 1:9
New American Standard Bible
The Ascension
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight... 11. ... This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

I want to discuss this whole "coming" thing. Because of the Full Preterist confusion shows up in these discussions, I want to clearly describe what I believe to be true. My position first and foremost is that Christ will return bodily in the future. In my mind there is no negotiation, or compromise.

The real question from my POV is what is meant in the Olivette Discourse when Christ describes his "coming on the clouds of heaven". The Dispensationalists and others jump right to the conclusion that this is Christ coming to earth. But it just doesn't say that. You are reading that into the passage.

From a Reformed perspective, we always have to use scripture to interpret scripture. Throughout the Old Testament, clouds were often used as a description of YHWH bringing judgment upon a people. IMHO, the Olivette discourse is describing Jesus bringing judgment upon apostate Israel.

It is really that simple. No dual fulfillments. No future fulfillment.
Chuckle!!! SInce "Eschatology" is just a religious term for "Rank Speculation", I have mo opinion, since that would be a waste of time. whatever's gonna happen, WE'LL KNOW WHEN IT DOES, and what to do.

Simple as that.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Rapture ready ~ by ReverendRV * August 26

Joshua 6:20 NASB
; So the people shouted, and priests blew the trumpets; and when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted with a great shout and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight ahead, and they took the city.

God delivered Israel from slavery while in Egypt, and promised the people a Land for themselves. God made them mighty, and fear spread to all who were in their way. One such place was Jericho, and they trusted in their city walls to keep them safe. God told Joshua to walk around the city six days and on the seventh day to do it seven times; then the Priests would blow trumpets and all the people would shout! When this was done, the walls of Jericho fell down and the people entered the city. ~ Rahab the Harlot previously made a Treaty with Israel by hiding two of their Spies. She hung a scarlet thread out her of window at the time of the attack so she could be saved. ~ Jericho’s Ruins have been found, and there’s a dispute about the Dating of its destruction; but if the Bible is true, it was just what we expected to find…

If the Bible’s true, we can always expect to find the Truth. ~ Have you ever had a god other than the God of the Bible? This was true of those living in Jericho. Have you ever thought of God as something Unreal? Then you’ve made a god to suit yourself; this is Idolatry. Have you ever used the name of God as a vile cuss word? This is called Blasphemy; if there is a God, could any wall keep you safe from him? Did you go to Church this week? You haven’t kept the Sabbath Holy. These are just four of the Ten Commandments, not including Lying and Stealing, which we all have done. Now we’ve walked around your walls six times, are you ready for a seventh? If God judged you by his standards, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you?? When the trumpets blow, you’ll fall with a shout...

You need a strong tower to take refuge in! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus is the Spotless lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. He’s the only person who deserves to go to Heaven on his own, but will not go alone; he trades his Righteousness with all who will dare hang their scarlet thread for him to see. He died on a Cross to pay for Sins, shed his scarlet blood for the Remission of Sins and to turn the Wrath of God away from us. He died, was buried three days but arose to new Life! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without our ever Working to be rescued. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and join a Bible believing Church that has a heart for the Lost. ~ The Bible teaches about the end of the world but before this happens the Rapture will occur; but what’s that? It’s when Jesus will return for his Church with a trumpet blast, with the voice of an Archangel; we’ll rise to be with him forever. But when the last trump blows it’s too late…

1st Thessalonians 4:16 NASB; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
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