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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I showed differently. You just refuse to believe it,.



Colossians 1:23 New International Version

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 1:8, KJV: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." ... Romans 1:8, NLT: "Let me say first that I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith in him is being talked about all over the world."



But when JESUS said "whole world", that's what He meant.

OK, I am fine with that also, for as you can see by the letters to all of the other churches and especially the church of Laodicea, the apostasy was already beginning to creep into the church and you can see this also in Jude and 2 Peter 2 and in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 to name only a few scriptures that reveal this.

Furthermore by 324 AD, the apostasy had gripped the entire church and the proof of this, is in the fact that the Bishops would even allow an evil man like Constantine to have any say so at all in what the church does concerning their doctrines.



You simply believe wrong. The test will be the great trib.
Sorry but Jesus didn't even use the same word when speaking of the great tribulation that he used in Revelation 3:10.

For the word used in Rev. 3:10 is , #3986. peirasmos and which mostly refers to temptation or testing and the word that Jesus used for the Great trib in Matthew 24:21 is #2347. thlipsis and which refers more to persecution and distress.



peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation

Definition: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Usage: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.


In the above the calamity and affliction would be what one would experience in temptation if they wanted to obey God but the emphasis on this word peirasmos is temptation and in the 21 passages in the NT were it is used not once is it ever translated as calamity or affliction but only as temptation or testing.


thlipsis: tribulation

Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

Same one you & I are in.

Being you are wanting to take everything said in Revelation so literally, how about the fact that Jesus also said that it would be coming SOON upon the whole world and yet here we are about 2000 years later and there still hasn't been a great tribulation like he was speaking of as having ever taken place yet.
horse Feathers. The whole world was known to Jesus, & that's what he spoke of. The same Jesus who made the Israeli made the Apache.

Once again!
Being you are wanting to take everything said in Revelation so literally, how about the fact that Jesus also said that it would be coming SOON upon the whole world and yet here we are about 2000 years later and there still hasn't been a great tribulation like he was speaking of as having ever taken place yet.

And once again, you believe wrong.

Why because you say I do? LOL! You are about as confused as one can possible get dude.
A 'great falling away' was prophesied.

Not only was it prophecies to come in the future, it was also already starting and as Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "for the mystery of iniquity is already working" and again Jesus spoke of the temptation that would soon be coming upon the whole world didn't he?
HOW IGNORANT ! This is your biggest whopper yet ! OF COURSE the angels were referring to His whole ascension ! That's common sense! If I say "I flew to Atlanta", it's obvious & rode in an aircraft to Atlanta. And you wonder why I don't believe much of what you post !
Not so fast, for as I said and will again, the angels only appear and began to speak to the disciples when Jesus was in the sky and they were looking up at him as he was disappearing from the clouds into heaven, it was only then that they appeared and said, "why do you men stand looking up into the sky, for this same Jesus whom you are seeing going into heaven will return in the same manor.

So the whopper in ignorance is yours and not mine

Beside this in every place where Jesus speaks of his return, he always says that he will be coming in the clouds and that every eye will see him also and he never says he will return to the earth and if you read Matthew 24:29-31 you will see this also.

That s why he sends his angels to gather his saints with the trumpet, because he will remain in the heavens right above the earth until he destroys the wicked and then resurrects and raptures his saints.

The insanity continues !

And that'll be His return, not the rapture. That's when He will physically return to earth, not when He calls the saints up to Him.

Sorry but he only returns once and all eyes will see him when he does and that will be the only resurrection and rapture that is yet to take place period
I just posted the Scriptures that prove this garbage to be garbage.

You have proven nothing from the scripture you post and that is because you are taking them to mean something that they were never intended to mean at all.
That MIGHT be the only true thing you've said in this post, escept that the rapture will have occurred first.

Sorry but it is the same event and Jesus only comes once and when he does all eyes will see him.

As I also said Paul very clearly revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 that the rapture that Jesus promises as our gathering together unto him in the air, would not take place until the apostasy came first and then the man of sin and son of perdition would also be revealed.

This totally contradicts your doctrine and what is more, so does what Paul said just prior to that in 2 Thessalonians 1, for he speaks of God in his righteousness recompensing trouble upon the wicked who are persecuting the saints and relief for the saints and that God would repay the wicked for their persecution of his saints.


Now pay attention, for how does he say that he will relieve the saints and give them rest from the the wicked who are persecuting them dude?

Read it yourself.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.


Very clearly Paul reveals that the saint will receive relief from their wicked adversaries that are persecuting them WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN BLAZING FIRE WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS AND PUNISHES THOSE WHO KNOW NOT GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS.





Just like I said, the last enemy that will be destroyed for the saints is death and therefore the saints will be the only people left alive on the earth after God destroys the wicked from among them first and right after this, death will also be put under the feet of Christ and he will resurrected his saints who have died and rapture those who are still alive at his coming.

That will also be the end of mortality on this earth for ever also, for he will then deliver the kingdom up unto God even the Father and having destroyed all the wicked from the earth, he will then also purge the heaven and earth of all of the stains of sin and disobedience left upon it by fire and create the New Heaven and Earth for himself and the Saints to live within forever. .



 
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robycop3

Well-known member

Colossians 1:23 New International Version

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Again, please show us when North America received the Gospel in Paul's lifetime.

Romans 1:8, KJV: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." ... Romans 1:8, NLT: "Let me say first that I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith in him is being talked about all over the world."

Show us where the Chinese talked about their faith in Paul's lifetime.
OK, I am fine with that also, for as you can see by the letters to all of the other churches and especially the church of Laodicea, the apostasy was already beginning to creep into the church and you can see this also in Jude and 2 Peter 2 and in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 to name only a few scriptures that reveal this.

Furthermore by 324 AD, the apostasy had gripped the entire church and the proof of this, is in the fact that the Bishops would even allow an evil man like Constantine to have any say so at all in what the church does concerning their doctrines.
Apostasy came as soon as the first person followed Jesus.
Sorry but Jesus didn't even use the same word when speaking of the great tribulation that he used in Revelation 3:10.

For the word used in Rev. 3:10 is , #3986. peirasmos and which mostly refers to temptation or testing and the word that Jesus used for the Great trib in Matthew 24:21 is #2347. thlipsis and which refers more to persecution and distress.



peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation

Definition: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Usage: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.


In the above the calamity and affliction would be what one would experience in temptation if they wanted to obey God but the emphasis on this word peirasmos is temptation and in the 21 passages in the NT were it is used not once is it ever translated as calamity or affliction but only as temptation or testing.


thlipsis: tribulation

Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.
A matter of semantics. An automobile, auto for short, is a car.A lorry is a truck. The great trib will be a calamity or affliction that'll hit the whole world, as Jesus said.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
Being you are wanting to take everything said in Revelation so literally, how about the fact that Jesus also said that it would be coming SOON upon the whole world and yet here we are about 2000 years later and there still hasn't been a great tribulation like he was speaking of as having ever taken place yet.
"Soon" to Him isn't the same as it is for us.His "coming quickly' refers to the SPPED of His coming, not a short measure of time. The great trib hasn't yet come cuz the antichrist hasn't yet come.
Once again!
Being you are wanting to take everything said in Revelation so literally, how about the fact that Jesus also said that it would be coming SOON upon the whole world and yet here we are about 2000 years later and there still hasn't been a great tribulation like he was speaking of as having ever taken place yet.


Why because you say I do? LOL! You are about as confused as one can possible get dude.
See my above answer.
Not only was it prophecies to come in the future, it was also already starting and as Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "for the mystery of iniquity is already working" and again Jesus spoke of the temptation that would soon be coming upon the whole world didn't he?
Well, it hasn't. Jesus' 'soon' isn't your 'soon'.
Not so fast, for as I said and will again, the angels only appear and began to speak to the disciples when Jesus was in the sky and they were looking up at him as he was disappearing from the clouds into heaven, it was only then that they appeared and said, "why do you men stand looking up into the sky, for this same Jesus whom you are seeing going into heaven will return in the same manor.

So the whopper in ignorance is yours and not mine
Please let your Thorazine & Lithium kick in before you post any more, lest you say something even more-stupid ! !

Beside this in every place where Jesus speaks of his return, he always says that he will be coming in the clouds and that every eye will see him also and he never says he will return to the earth and if you read Matthew 24:29-31 you will see this also.
Scripture proves your garbage is garbage-Zech. 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
That s why he sends his angels to gather his saints with the trumpet, because he will remain in the heavens right above the earth until he destroys the wicked and then resurrects and raptures his saints.
"What a maroon !"
-Bugs Bunny

Sorry but he only returns once and all eyes will see him when he does and that will be the only resurrection and rapture that is yet to take place period
He doesn't return when He raptures the saints. He calls them to Him.
You have proven nothing from the scripture you post and that is because you are taking them to mean something that they were never intended to mean at all.
That's YOUR method.
Sorry but it is the same event and Jesus only comes once and when he does all eyes will see him.

As I also said Paul very clearly revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 that the rapture that Jesus promises as our gathering together unto him in the air, would not take place until the apostasy came first and then the man of sin and son of perdition would also be revealed.
You yourself said apostasy is going on now, & I agree. But the rapture will occur before the full evil of the AC & FP are revealed. With the Christians gone, there'll be very-little opposition to the marka the beast.
This totally contradicts your doctrine and what is more, so does what Paul said just prior to that in 2 Thessalonians 1, for he speaks of God in his righteousness recompensing trouble upon the wicked who are persecuting the saints and relief for the saints and that God would repay the wicked for their persecution of his saints.

Now pay attention, for how does he say that he will relieve the saints and give them rest from the the wicked who are persecuting them dude?

Read it yourself.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.


Very clearly Paul reveals that the saint will receive relief from their wicked adversaries that are persecuting them WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN IN BLAZING FIRE WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS AND PUNISHES THOSE WHO KNOW NOT GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS.
Yes, that'll be the trib saints & the 144K Israselis.
Just like I said, the last enemy that will be destroyed for the saints is death and therefore the saints will be the only people left alive on the earth after God destroys the wicked from among them first and right after this, death will also be put under the feet of Christ and he will resurrected his saints who have died and rapture those who are still alive at his coming.

That will also be the end of mortality on this earth for ever also, for he will then deliver the kingdom up unto God even the Father and having destroyed all the wicked from the earth, he will then also purge the heaven and earth of all of the stains of sin and disobedience left upon it by fire and create the New Heaven and Earth for himself and the Saints to live within forever. .
I recently posted Scripture that proves you wrong. If you don't wanna believe GOD, that's between you & Him.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
"Soon" to Him isn't the same as it is for us.His "coming quickly' refers to the SPPED of His coming, not a short measure of time. The great trib hasn't yet come cuz the antichrist hasn't yet come.
See my above answer.

Well, it hasn't. Jesus' 'soon' isn't your 'soon'.

That is comical, for Jesus is speaking to them and not to himself dude!
Please let your Thorazine & Lithium kick in before you post any more, lest you say something even more-stupid ! !


Scripture proves your garbage is garbage-Zech. 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
That certainly doesn't prove what you think it does.


That is anthropomorphic language for the power of God touching the mountain and God doesn't have feet, the Bible if full of this kind of language concerning God Almighty and like in Isaiah 66:1 "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my foot stool",


So then, where may I ask if this is speaking of Jesus, will he be standing once the mountain splits in half?

"What a maroon !"
-Bugs Bunny

He doesn't return when He raptures the saints. He calls them to Him.

And unfortunately for you, you have no real proof from scripture that reveals that there will be one secret coming of Jesus for a pre tribulation resurrection and rapture and then a second second coming where all eyes will see him, there simply is no support in the scriptures at all for this idea.

Even when we read his parables, the very clearly reveal that his coming will be both to destroy the wicked and also to gather his saints into heaven in one single coming and not two.

That's YOUR method.

You yourself said apostasy is going on now, & I agree. But the rapture will occur before the full evil of the AC & FP are revealed. With the Christians gone, there'll be very-little opposition to the marka the beast.
Nope and Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly proves this also.

Very clearly these believers were told that Jesus had already come and somehow they were forgotten by him and therefore Paul makes it clearly to them that the resurrection and rapture (our gathering together unto him) would not come until first their was an apostasy and then the man of sin and son of perdition was revealed.

Here read it yourself.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 New International Version

2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (the resurrection and rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.



Yes, that'll be the trib saints & the 144K Israselis.

I recently posted Scripture that proves you wrong. If you don't wanna believe GOD, that's between you & Him.
Only in your deceived imagination and everyone on this forum no matter what they believe, will say the same exact thing and which really means nothing therefore unless they gave the scriptures in light of the proper meaning of them and you didn't at all period.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Again, please show us when North America received the Gospel in Paul's lifetime. Show us where the Chinese talked about their faith in Paul's lifetime.
Again, take that up with Paul who wrote it, for all I am doing by showing you this, is proving to you that the words "whole world" didn't mean the whole world but only the world that they had influence over or that was in their reach at the time it was written to them.

Also your statement about Jesus referring to what he understood of what the world was or how soon the temptation would come is bogus nonsense, for he was speaking what he spoke not for his own understanding but for theirs and that is where your theory on that falls apart.
Apostasy came as soon as the first person followed Jesus.

And so did tribulation and persecution as well dude.

So that is correct, for Judas was a perfect example of that but the same was true with the persecution of the saints and tribulation in life as well.


However, Jesus is speaking here in Rev. 3:10 of what would soon start to spread into the world in a greater sense and of which because they were steadfastness in faith, they would not need to worry about being tested by.
A matter of semantics. An automobile, auto for short, is a car.A lorry is a truck. The great trib will be a calamity or affliction that'll hit the whole world, as Jesus said.
Sorry but the word used in Revelation 3:10 is always only translated to mean a test or temptation and is never once used to speak of tribulation and like the other word that I showed you the meaning of, look it up yourself on the Englishman's Concordance on the Bible Hub.

Just type into your search box "Interlinear for Rev. 3:10" and when it opens look at the top above the word for "test" and put your cursor on it and left click on it and it will open the word and it's meaning and to the right all the places in the NT where the word appears and what it is translated to mean.

Hey I realize that you are scared senseless at the thought of having to die for your faith and therefore you are trying to find an out in his word so that you will not have to but if you are that frightened now, just think of how it will be when you find out that you will not be raptured out of this but will have to suffer persecution and possibly die for your faith.

For I can assure you, that if you are still alive when it comes, you will suffer persecution and there will also be no pre trib rapture to deliver you from it either.

Therefore you are pining away for something that is never going to deliver you with that nonsense, for the scripture very clearly reveal, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution".

However if you aren't really a believer at all but only deceiving yourself in believing you are, you will instead suffering the judgments of almighty God and just like Revelation 18:4 speaks of also for those who continue to belong to the Harlot Apostate Church Mystery Babylon when Jesus returns and that is the majority also.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
Again, take that up with Paul who wrote it, for all I am doing by showing you this, is proving to you that the words "whole world" didn't mean the whole world but only the world that they had influence over or that was in their reach at the time it was written to them.
Paul wasn't Jesus. While paul only knew the Roman empire & its immediate neighbors, Jesus knew the literal whole workd.
Also your statement about Jesus referring to what he understood of what the world was or how soon the temptation would come is bogus nonsense, for he was speaking what he spoke not for his own understanding but for theirs and that is where your theory on that falls apart.
And when Jesus said "whole world, He meant WHOLE WORLD! Get that thru your thick skull !
And so did tribulation and persecution as well dude.
But not the great trib, the worst set of calamities for all time, to which Jesus was referring.
So that is correct, for Judas was a perfect example of that but the same was true with the persecution of the saints and tribulation in life as well.
Yes, SOME saints were persecuted pretty severely, such as being burnt at the stake, fed to lions, or employed as javelin-catchers. But the great trib hasn't yet come.
However, Jesus is speaking here in Rev. 3:10 of what would soon start to spread into the world in a greater sense and of which because they were steadfastness in faith, they would not need to worry about being tested by.
Jesus was speaking of the great trib, & that those then alive wouldn't be in it, & those alive when it was about to begin would be raptured away from it.
Sorry but the word used in Revelation 3:10 is always only translated to mean a test or temptation and is never once used to speak of tribulation and like the other word that I showed you the meaning of, look it up yourself on the Englishman's Concordance on the Bible Hub.
Sure, the great trib will be a test, & a temptation to take the marka the beast, as he will almost-certainly promise his followers relief from it.
Just type into your search box "Interlinear for Rev. 3:10" and when it opens look at the top above the word for "test" and put your cursor on it and left click on it and it will open the word and it's meaning and to the right all the places in the NT where the word appears and what it is translated to mean.
Read my answer above.
Hey I realize that you are scared senseless at the thought of having to die for your faith and therefore you are trying to find an out in his word so that you will not have to but if you are that frightened now, just think of how it will be when you find out that you will not be raptured out of this but will have to suffer persecution and possibly die for your faith.
I might hafta die for my faith today. I'm thinking of the girl in Columbine HS who told Klebold & harris she was a Christian, & when they said renounce it or die, she refused to renounce it & was shot in the face with a shotgun.
For I can assure you, that if you are still alive when it comes, you will suffer persecution and there will also be no pre trib rapture to deliver you from it either.
So, I should believe you over JESUS? Not!
Therefore you are pining away for something that is never going to deliver you with that nonsense, for the scripture very clearly reveal, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution".
I've suffered some persecution already. I had to give up being a cop because it clashed with my faith. A Moslem called me a Christian infidel & came after me. (Til I punched his nose in.) Been called names for my faith, but that doesn't bother me.
However if you aren't really a believer at all but only deceiving yourself in believing you are, you will instead suffering the judgments of almighty God and just like Revelation 18:4 speaks of also for those who continue to belong to the Harlot Apostate Church Mystery Babylon when Jesus returns and that is the majority also.
Apply THAT to YOURSELF. it appears your cult & its guru have brainkilled you pretty good, so you accept their hooey.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Paul wasn't Jesus. While paul only knew the Roman empire & its immediate neighbors, Jesus knew the literal whole workd.

So what, Jesus was still saying what he said unto that Church for their information and they didn't have his knowledge about it and so it had to reflect what they personally knew of the world and not what he knew of it and the same thing is true of when he said it would happen soon also.

For all that he meant by the fact that it would soon becoming upon the whole world is only that it would begin to come upon the whole world and not that it would all at once.

And when Jesus said "whole world, He meant WHOLE WORLD! Get that thru your thick skull !

Don't tell me anything about a thick skull dude, for you are the one who has that due to your following the teachings of other men led by their own flesh and which always leads to one becoming thick as a brick.

For it is obvious that you don't have an original word from God on any of this being it has all been taught before and quite often also.

As a matter of fact, I used to believe it myself, for every church that I have ever belonged to, taught the same stuff but when I grew up in my own relationship with God, that is when he led me away from that nonsense and into what really is the truth about those issues.

But not the great trib, the worst set of calamities for all time, to which Jesus was referring.

So what, for you were arguing that apostasy started as far back as the first believer and I answered you that so did tribulation and persecution also and the first person persecuted for his righteousness was Abel and by his brother also.

So the fact that apostasy has always existed doesn't prove that Jesus was not speaking about the temptation to commit apostasy in Rev. 3:10 and that is why I brought it up.

Yes, SOME saints were persecuted pretty severely, such as being burnt at the stake, fed to lions, or employed as javelin-catchers. But the great trib hasn't yet come.
Not just a few but many and never has it been quite that bad since either.
Jesus was speaking of the great trib, & that those then alive wouldn't be in it, & those alive when it was about to begin would be raptured away from it.
So that is your argument dude?

That actual proves that you are wrong about it being the Great Tribulation, for if the words of Jesus didn't mean anything unto that generation of the church first, then neither would it for any future generation either.

Therefore, your using that for your argument is actually quite foolish to say the least.

Sure, the great trib will be a test, & a temptation to take the marka the beast, as he will almost-certainly promise his followers relief from it.

Sorry but Jesus didn't use the same word and that is obviously because he wasn't speaking of the persecution or tribulation however you want to call it, either, for it was the same Jesus who spoke of both events and if he was speaking of the same thing as Matthew 24, he would have used the same word but he didn't.
Read my answer above.

I might hafta die for my faith today. I'm thinking of the girl in Columbine HS who told Klebold & harris she was a Christian, & when they said renounce it or die, she refused to renounce it & was shot in the face with a shotgun.

Yes but those events are far and few between in our day and age and you also know that just like I do also and you also know that Jesus said that the tribulation would be such as has never happened before or will again after so we are talking about and intense persecution and unlike any other.

That is also why many will fall prey to a pre trib rapture false teaching because the truth be told, they are horrified at the thought of what Jesus said about it and worried about whether or not they will endure and which would reveal that they are not genuinely saved also.

So, I should believe you over JESUS? Not!

You are not believing Jesus to begin with dude, for Jesus never told you or anyone else that he would come two times, one secretly and one where every eye would see him, so if you want to teach this, you have the burden to also prove it from scripture and you cannot.

For there are no teachings given in the NT for any such pre trib rapture and deep down in your guts you know it also, but instead these teachings are being assumed from scriptures that are not at all revealing any such thing.

For instance, just because God said, "for God has not called us to wrath but rather unto salvation through Jesus Christ" doesn't mean that God has to deliver anyone from his wrath through a pre trib rapture but this is yet another passage that your churches fabricate a pre trib rapture from.

They also do this only on the bases that the church is not mention past chapter 3 of Revelation and that also is nothing more than an argument from silence and an assumption not based on any solid facts from what is stated.

For God has been protecting his people from the wrath that he pours out on the wicked all through the history of believers on this earth and even in the day of Noah, God did not take Noah out of the world and even used the same flood that killed the wicked to save the righteous.

But when it was all over, it was Noah and his family left upon this earth and no one else period.

I've suffered some persecution already. I had to give up being a cop because it clashed with my faith. A Moslem called me a Christian infidel & came after me. (Til I punched his nose in.) Been called names for my faith, but that doesn't bother me.

Big deal, so have I and in fact from members of my own family also, for the night that I got saved my own Father put his hands around my neck and choked me and told me to get out of his house and I was living at home at the time and had to find a motel that very night.

My Grandfather also, for my Grandmother although she also persecuted me with her words, had to pull my Grandfather off me more than once because he came after me because he didn't like what I believe in being a Catholic like he was.

Not to mention many others on the jobs that I worked on also and one boss in particular that fired me because he hated me for my faith.

However, the other guys knowing that he fired me because of my faith also got together and called up the union hall and told them that I was fired unjustly and therefore I was back on the job the next day praise God, but even they picked on me constantly about it but at least they were not given over to total wickedness like the boss was.



Apply THAT to YOURSELF. it appears your cult & its guru have brainkilled you pretty good, so you accept their hooey.
I no longer belong to any groups at all professing to be Christians and the only group I have ever belonged to where those who believe and teach like you do, but I believe all of them are in apostasy and therefore I seek God on my own for the truth from his word now
 

robycop3

Well-known member
"You can lead a horse to water..."

No one but that one Moslem tried to physically assault me for my faith, but you can see what I look like; I'm 6'2",235 lb. & no one who knows me would try to assault me, despite my 72 years. And I eased outta policing cuz before salvation, I was an "Oakland Rider"-style cop in a large city, whose jobs included being a "mechanic" who "tuned up" suspects to obtain intel, & framing some people(One doesn't need tracks to run a railroad !) for intel, ratting out their cohorts, etc., which was bearing false witness. So I had plenty of sins that needed forgiving, and a strong desire to do them no more.

So go ahead & continue in your cult's trash, which you apparently think more of than the actual meanings of God's words. I only hope you actually have come to Jesus so that He's saved you.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
"You can lead a horse to water..."

No one but that one Moslem tried to physically assault me for my faith, but you can see what I look like; I'm 6'2",235 lb. & no one who knows me would try to assault me, despite my 72 years. And I eased outta policing cuz before salvation, I was an "Oakland Rider"-style cop in a large city, whose jobs included being a "mechanic" who "tuned up" suspects to obtain intel, & framing some people(One doesn't need tracks to run a railroad !) for intel, ratting out their cohorts, etc., which was bearing false witness. So I had plenty of sins that needed forgiving, and a strong desire to do them no more.

So go ahead & continue in your cult's trash, which you apparently think more of than the actual meanings of God's words. I only hope you actually have come to Jesus so that He's saved you.
I will tell you something else that reveals how wrong you are about this and that I didn't cover before but that I will now.

Jesus would never have made a promise to that church for every future generation right up until the Tribulation only because of the obedience of the original generation that he made the promise to because of their obedience and that is what you end up believing about this with your view on it.

For there is no guarantee that the generations following that one would continue to obey like they did in the first place and in fact if they were made a promise like that, they would be more likely prone to get complacent because of it.

Therefore Jesus never made a promise for the whole age of that church but only for that generation of the church that kept his word in nearly perfect obedience.

As far as your statement in your reply, I have seen some really small guys get right up in the face of much bigger guys, and when you are talking about anger over religion, it can become like alcohol to an otherwise passive person, it can so enrage them that they will forget your size and come after you anyhow.

Nevertheless, I have had a lot of persecution in my life and even from people of the same church I was going to and some of it wasn't my being attached but just being unfavored by the majority and that is because the church being in apostasy has become nothing more than a religious selfish and cliquish social club anyhow.
 
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Can YOU prove it wrong? I think not ! Jesus has not yet returned, & those who pierced Him are long-dead. But Jesus said they'd see His return ! So, how else can they seeHim except from hades ?
Jesus plainly meant that as an old man the hi priest would see the return of Jesus in the clouds.
have a nice day.
 

Timtofly

Member
Isaiah 2:22 "Cease from trusting in man in whose nostrils is the breath of life, for why should be be esteemed".

The very reason why God warns his true saints about this is because of the apostasy that would be bringing his judgments upon this world that he speaks of just prior to this, so I suggest you read it along with Hebrews 12:25-29 and which is speaking of the same coming judgment of God.
How can we trust your words, when you claim the earth will exist as an empty and void lifeless nothing? Why would the New Jerusalem come down to nothingness?

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death,
27 for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.
28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.

This is proof that Christ will reign for 1000 years on this earth and create a perfect place to subject to God, prior to the GWT, and the end of Death.

How can an empty void lifeless earth be subjected to God as perfect and complete?

Also verses 54-57

54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

Christ populates the earth with humans having incorruptible bodies. At the end these humans can still reject God and be consumed in the Lake of Fire. God does not force any against their will to obey Him.

This is not the church in Paradise. The church was glorified 1000 years prior at the Second Coming.

Verses 50-53 do not violate the timing but happen 1000 years prior.

50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.

If you mess with the restoration of all things you have an incomplete picture of all being subjected to God. Do humans leave the Lake of Fire, or is it left subjected to God, as is? If you acknowledge the Lake of Fire, why do you so easily dismiss the restoration of earth, and leave it void of life?
 

robycop3

Well-known member
I will tell you something else that reveals how wrong you are about this and that I didn't cover before but that I will now.

Jesus would never have made a promise to that church for every future generation right up until the Tribulation only because of the obedience of the original generation that he made the promise to because of their obedience and that is what you end up believing about this with your view on it.

For there is no guarantee that the generations following that one would continue to obey like they did in the first place and in fact if they were made a promise like that, they would be more likely prone to get complacent because of it.

Therefore Jesus never made a promise for the whole age of that church but only for that generation of the church that kept his word in nearly perfect obedience.

As far as your statement in your reply, I have seen some really small guys get right up in the face of much bigger guys, and when you are talking about anger over religion, it can become like alcohol to an otherwise passive person, it can so enrage them that they will forget your size and come after you anyhow.

Nevertheless, I have had a lot of persecution in my life and even from people of the same church I was going to and some of it wasn't my being attached but just being unfavored by the majority and that is because the church being in apostasy has become nothing more than a religious selfish and cliquish social club anyhow.
Remember, Jesus knew what that church (& all others) would do long as they existed. And, for the umpteenth time, when JESUS said "the whole world", that's exactly what He meant ! It simply hasn't yet happened !
 

robycop3

Well-known member
How can we trust your words, when you claim the earth will exist as an empty and void lifeless nothing? Why would the New Jerusalem come down to nothingness?

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death,
27 for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.
28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.

This is proof that Christ will reign for 1000 years on this earth and create a perfect place to subject to God, prior to the GWT, and the end of Death.

How can an empty void lifeless earth be subjected to God as perfect and complete?

Also verses 54-57

54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

Christ populates the earth with humans having incorruptible bodies. At the end these humans can still reject God and be consumed in the Lake of Fire. God does not force any against their will to obey Him.

This is not the church in Paradise. The church was glorified 1000 years prior at the Second Coming.

Verses 50-53 do not violate the timing but happen 1000 years prior.

50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.

If you mess with the restoration of all things you have an incomplete picture of all being subjected to God. Do humans leave the Lake of Fire, or is it left subjected to God, as is? If you acknowledge the Lake of Fire, why do you so easily dismiss the restoration of earth, and leave it void of life?
Scripture plainly says the saints will live & reign with Jesus for 1K years, while Satan is banished. And at the end of that time, Satan will be loosed & he will start another rebellion of men against Jesus. How can people who claimtabee Christians go against plain, clear Scripture?

And there'll be mortal people on earth during the millenium, I. E. "the nations". God's kingdom will be "A" nation, not plural nations, so there will be mortal people on earth.
 

Timtofly

Member
Scripture plainly says the saints will live & reign with Jesus for 1K years, while Satan is banished. And at the end of that time, Satan will be loosed & he will start another rebellion of men against Jesus. How can people who claimtabee Christians go against plain, clear Scripture?

And there'll be mortal people on earth during the millenium, I. E. "the nations". God's kingdom will be "A" nation, not plural nations, so there will be mortal people on earth.
There is no verse claiming mortal humans.

The 7th Trumpet is the end of sin. None of Adam's sinful flesh and blood can live after the 7th Trumpet.

Of course the nations will be represented. That is the harvest of the Nations in the 7 Thunders. The wheat will represent the Nations, but it is through death and resurrection.

Adam disobeyed God prior to sin. Humans with incorruptible bodies can still brake Laws, and God can still send them to Death. What will be missing is sin, a sin nature, and blind faith, and Satan. All will know God and Christ. Even then some will be corrected with the iron rod, even to the point of Death. Adam was banned from God's presence. We do not know the Laws of the Millennium. We cannot even understand what living without sin entails. Adam and Eve lived before sin was even in the world, so it has happened before. Of course Satan can deceive humans. He deceived Eve, so again it has happened before, without sin present in the world. It is called comparing Scripture with Scripture, not just making "stuff up".

So why make up mortals in Adam's sinful flesh when God claims at the 7th Trumpet, all is complete?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Remember, Jesus knew what that church (& all others) would do long as they existed. And, for the umpteenth time, when JESUS said "the whole world", that's exactly what He meant ! It simply hasn't yet happened !
How do you know that? For in Matthew 24:36 he not only said that he didn't know the day or hour of his own return but that Only The Father did Alone.

This means he wasn't omniscient but still only knew what the Father gave him to know, albeit he indeed knew more than any other man before or after him, but he still was not omniscient and his own words to his disciples in Matthew 24:36 reveals this also.

Beside this, even if he did know what they would do, he certainly wouldn't give the church that kind of a promise because if he did, they would be more likely to get complacent thinking that no matter what they would be spared the temptation and test.

Jesus made that promise to that obedient generation of that church and not unto every generation of that church.

What is amazing to me, is that the letters John wrote to the churches from Jesus are the only completely literal words in the Book and yet you are reading things into them as though they symbolize all the churches of this whole age and yet the symbolic prophecy itself, you what to take literal.

That doesn't even make sense at all.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
How can we trust your words, when you claim the earth will exist as an empty and void lifeless nothing? Why would the New Jerusalem come down to nothingness?

Peter very clearly tells us in 2 Peter 3:10-13 that at the end of the day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night, this heaven and earth will be purged by fire to make way for the New Heaven and earth, and I said nothing about this earth remaining in any way, shape or form after the day of the Lord ends, for it won't.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death,
27 for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.
28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.

This is proof that Christ will reign for 1000 years on this earth and create a perfect place to subject to God, prior to the GWT, and the end of Death.

That passage doesn't prove any such nonsense, and in fact, it proves just the opposite and I noticed that you omitted verses 22-24, so lets look at what that says in the full context.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 New International Version

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ (past tense), the first fruits (past tense as per Matthew 27:51-53); then, when he comes, those who belong to him (future tense). 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


Very clearly Paul call it the end and the end means the end when he delivers the resurrected and raptured kingdom of the saints up unto God even the Father and after, after he has destroyed all his enemies of dominion, authority and power.

The last enemy to be destroyed will be death and which clearly reveals why there will even be a rapture of the church at all.

For when he has destroyed death for the believers, it means that they will no longer have to suffer physical death and bingo, the dead will be raised and those who are alive and waiting for the coming of Jesus will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and to be delivered up unto God the Father in heaven.

How can an empty void lifeless earth be subjected to God as perfect and complete?

Also verses 54-57

54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

Christ populates the earth with humans having incorruptible bodies. At the end these humans can still reject God and be consumed in the Lake of Fire. God does not force any against their will to obey Him.

This is not the church in Paradise. The church was glorified 1000 years prior at the Second Coming.

Verses 50-53 do not violate the timing but happen 1000 years prior.

50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.

If you mess with the restoration of all things you have an incomplete picture of all being subjected to God. Do humans leave the Lake of Fire, or is it left subjected to God, as is? If you acknowledge the Lake of Fire, why do you so easily dismiss the restoration of earth, and leave it void of life?
Sounds like you have been influenced at least some by the Seventh Day Adventist church, am I right?

Anyhow, there will be no immortality on this old sin stained planet but the old heaven and earth will pass away and then the New Heaven and Earth will be established in it's place and just like 2 Peter 3:10-12 reveals and also Revelation 21-22.

New Jerusalem does not descend from God onto this old earth but rather The New Earth and just like the Bible says also.
 
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robycop3

Well-known member
There is no verse claiming mortal humans.

The 7th Trumpet is the end of sin. None of Adam's sinful flesh and blood can live after the 7th Trumpet.

Of course the nations will be represented. That is the harvest of the Nations in the 7 Thunders. The wheat will represent the Nations, but it is through death and resurrection.

Adam disobeyed God prior to sin. Humans with incorruptible bodies can still brake Laws, and God can still send them to Death. What will be missing is sin, a sin nature, and blind faith, and Satan. All will know God and Christ. Even then some will be corrected with the iron rod, even to the point of Death. Adam was banned from God's presence. We do not know the Laws of the Millennium. We cannot even understand what living without sin entails. Adam and Eve lived before sin was even in the world, so it has happened before. Of course Satan can deceive humans. He deceived Eve, so again it has happened before, without sin present in the world. It is called comparing Scripture with Scripture, not just making "stuff up".

So why make up mortals in Adam's sinful flesh when God claims at the 7th Trumpet, all is complete?
Rev. 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Now, Jesus wouldn't need to rule the saints with a rod of iron, as they'll gladly & cheerfully obey Him.

Rev. 20:8
and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Now Magog, who had a ruler called Gog, was in what's now Russia, almost due north of Jerusalem. Apparently, its people will still be existing, & not just those who bacame Christians, as Satan won't be able to deceive saints into fighting against Jesus & the other saints. (Apparently, those of Magog called their rulers "Gog", as the Israelis called every ruler of Egypt "Pharaoh" rewgardless of his/her actual name.)

Then, there's the famous Isaiah 11, with wolves & lambs laying together, etc. That, of course, hasn't yet come to pass. That chapter shows there will still be children born then.
 
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robycop3

Well-known member
How do you know that? For in Matthew 24:36 he not only said that he didn't know the day or hour of his own return but that Only The Father did Alone.
That's about the ONLY thing He didn't know, as is evident in His words.
This means he wasn't omniscient but still only knew what the Father gave him to know, albeit he indeed knew more than any other man before or after him, but he still was not omniscient and his own words to his disciples in Matthew 24:36 reveals this also.
Again, he knew what was to become of everyone/everything on earth.
Beside this, even if he did know what they would do, he certainly wouldn't give the church that kind of a promise because if he did, they would be more likely to get complacent thinking that no matter what they would be spared the temptation and test.

Jesus made that promise to that obedient generation of that church and not unto every generation of that church.

What is amazing to me, is that the letters John wrote to the churches from Jesus are the only completely literal words in the Book and yet you are reading things into them as though they symbolize all the churches of this whole age and yet the symbolic prophecy itself, you what to take literal.
Yes, they're literal, & when Jesus said "the whole world', that's literally what He meant! That event simply hasn't yet happened, simple as THAT !
That doesn't even make sense at all.
 
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