Commandments vs Ordinances

Icyspark

Active member
In this article we'll be examining the differences God set in place between His set of Ten Commandments and all the other ceremonial, civil and dietary ordinances.

1a. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.
Exodus 20:1
"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . "
Exodus 20:22
"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
“Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses. This to me says quite a lot about this particular law.

1b. Ordinances spoken by Moses
Exodus 24:3
“So Moses came and TOLD THE PEOPLE ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the LORD has said we will do.' "


2a. Ten Commandments engraved on tablets of stone by God Himself
Exodus 31:18
“And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”

What significance might there be to the fact that God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Not only once did He write them, but twice (see Deuteronomy 10:1-4). Why wouldn’t God entrust Moses to write them down either time?

Exodus 34:28
"And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments."
Here we see that the Ten Commandments are indeed a covenant, but how many commandments are in this particular covenant?
Deuteronomy 5:22
"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

Obviously if you lump the commandments in with all the ceremonial, civil and dietary laws you would have more than ten. Some say you'd have 613. The numeral ten clearly limits the total. And if God ADDED NO MORE, how can man? The Ten Commandments are also a complete covenant. God did not say “part of a covenant.” He also didn't say they were an installment, they were complete.

What does “He added no more” mean? Immediately following the account of the giving of the Ten Commandments God continues in chapter 21 with more laws to “set before them.”

2b. The ordinances written by Moses in a book
Exodus 24:4, 7 (see also Deuteronomy 31:24)
“And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, ‘All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.’"

Is there a covenant mentioned here? Yes. There is also is a promise, albeit a faulty one--by the people.


3a. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant.
Deuteronomy 10:5
“Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and PUT THE TABLETS IN THE ARK which I had made; and there they are, just as the LORD commanded me.”

3b. Ordinances deposited by the Levites “by the side of the ark.”
Deuteronomy 31:26​
“Take this Book of the Law and PLACE IT BESIDE THE ARK of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a WITNESS AGAINST YOU.”​

Why did God command Moses to place the book of the covenant "beside the ark of the covenant"? Wasn't there enough room to put it in with the Ten Commandments? If the commandments written on stone; spoken by God; and written with God's own finger were no different from all these additional decrees, ordinances and laws then why did God command that they be kept separate?

With the above laid as a foundation let's move on to what Paul says was done away with at the cross.

Colossians 2:14, 16-17
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that WAS AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Did you get that? The reason we no longer observe the Passover, Jewish feasts and offer animal sacrifices is because all of these were a part of the handwriting of ordinances which were a shadow pointing forward to the cross. Once Jesus died, offering an animal sacrifice would be denying His sacrifice. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandment covenant cannot be included in this text for many reasons but mainly because it was a memorial of something that took place in the past (Exodus 20:11)--it wasn’t pointing forward to the cross. The Sabbath is a memorial of God’s creative power. God’s creative power is why He is deserving of our worship and praise! (Revelation 14:7) The Sabbath is the day God rested from His creating and then He blessed, sanctified and hallowed the seventh day.

Now if the Ten Commandments are still in existence the following texts will make more sense.

Romans 7:7, 12-13
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet.’ Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good... Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

What law is being quoted from here? The Ten Commandments, right? (c.f. Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21). Is this saying that only the tenth command of the Ten Commandments is holy, just and good? Obviously not. If you quote one from a set then you include the whole set. If I am speaking to an audience familiar with the game of Monopoly and I refer to Boardwalk, my hearers will know I'm speaking in reference to one of the 28 Monopoly properties. They will not automatically assume that I'm also referring to all the Chance and Community Chest cards. Those are also part of the game but they are known to be separate from the property cards.

James 2:9-12
“But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ’do not commit adultery,’ also said, ’do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the LAW OF LIBERTY.

Again we see two more of the commands from the stone tablets. I find that with so much reference to the Ten Commandments found in the new covenant that its amazing how willing people are to try to find rationale for why this set of commands is no longer in effect. I've found that all of the gesticulations and manipulations are all about the attempt to forget the one command which God says we are to remember. How odd. :unsure:

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
Colossians 2:14, 16-17"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that WAS AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity with is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man thus establishing peace.

You quoted a verse then to prove that the book of the Law Moses wrote in is not applicable anymore. Is that correct? Then why do you observe the clean and unclean foods? Why are you judging others on their sabbath days? These have been done away with by your own words. Why are you tithing? This is in the book of the Law. Your correct in stating the sabbath was not pointing to the cross it was pointing to Jesus who is Lord of the sabbath. Who says today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts, because there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. That sabbath rest is 24/7 not one day of the week, that’s what creation was about it was a consistent sabbath rest for Adam and Eve, they rested in the Lord in the garden of Eden. There is no sabbath command in Genesis.

Romans 7:7, 12-13“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet.’ Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good... Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
You forgot verses 14-25

The Conflict of Two Natures​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

To get the context of this read Romans 7:4-6

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.​

Therefore Icy what say you are you in the sinful passions aroused by the Law? Or are you under the law of God?​

You took that quote from James out of context as usual, here is the whole paragraph,​

The Sin of Partiality​

2 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?​

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs​

How many times does this happen in the SDA church hey? The rich are treated better than the poor. Do you show partiality Icy? Do you love your neighbour especially if their not an SDA? Do you keep the royal law? Which is Jesus Christ?​

By saying the book of ordinances (book of Moses or Law) you are taking away from the Law​

Deuteronomy 4:2​

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I am commanding you.​

Why are you taking away from the commands?​

Please note the warning in Deuteronomy 12:32​

Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do, you shall not add to nor take away from it.​

Are you heeding the warning? Will you be shown to be a liar?​

I pray this helps​

 

Icyspark

Active member
Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity with is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man thus establishing peace.

You quoted a verse then to prove that the book of the Law Moses wrote in is not applicable anymore. Is that correct? Then why do you observe the clean and unclean foods? Why are you judging others on their sabbath days? These have been done away with by your own words. Why are you tithing? This is in the book of the Law. Your correct in stating the sabbath was not pointing to the cross it was pointing to Jesus who is Lord of the sabbath. Who says today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts, because there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. That sabbath rest is 24/7 not one day of the week, that’s what creation was about it was a consistent sabbath rest for Adam and Eve, they rested in the Lord in the garden of Eden. There is no sabbath command in Genesis.


Hi Formersda,

For someone who claims to have been a lawyer :rolleyes: I find it odd that you apparently don't comprehend the difference between ordinances and laws. Do you really think the commandments written on stone were ever identified as ordinances? (The answer is no)

Your question about clean and unclean food again illustrates that your claim to having been a Seventh-day Adventist is dubious at best.

Adventists do not point to the law for our healthful diet. We look to the Edenic diet--in the beginning.

All your other nonsense is based on non-referenced proof texting. :rolleyes: The hypocrisy is beyond ironic. I dare you to post the entire context of the "sabbath rest for the people of God" reference. It says exactly opposite to what you are attempting to convey.

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

For someone who claims to have been a lawyer :rolleyes: I find it odd that you apparently don't comprehend the difference between ordinances and laws. Do you really think the commandments written on stone were ever identified as ordinances? (The answer is no)

Your question about clean and unclean food again illustrates that your claim to having been a Seventh-day Adventist is dubious at best.

Adventists do not point to the law for our healthful diet. We look to the Edenic diet--in the beginning.

All your other nonsense is based on non-referenced proof texting. :rolleyes: The hypocrisy is beyond ironic. I dare you to post the entire context of the "sabbath rest for the people of God" reference. It says exactly opposite to what you are attempting to convey.

I pray this helps.
Ok so you dare me to write the entire context to sabbath rest? Ok no problem.

Jesus Our High Priest​

3 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

The Peril of Unbelief​

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

The Believer’s Rest​

4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through followingthe same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

As to you assertion that no it’s not about the clean and unclean laws but an Eden diet. Let me refer you to your own prophet, cause you need to follow what she says,
The dietary distinction between clean and unclean meats, based on Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, is generally understood and accepted among Adventists today. Unlike the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which pointed to Christ, or the civil laws, which governed the theocracy, these health laws were based on natural law and thus not merely applicable to one age and time.


Do you tithe?
 

Icyspark

Active member
Ok so you dare me to write the entire context to sabbath rest? Ok no problem.

The Believer’s Rest​

4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through followingthe same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

As to you assertion that no it’s not about the clean and unclean laws but an Eden diet. Let me refer you to your own prophet, cause you need to follow what she says,
The dietary distinction between clean and unclean meats, based on Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, is generally understood and accepted among Adventists today. Unlike the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, which pointed to Christ, or the civil laws, which governed the theocracy, these health laws were based on natural law and thus not merely applicable to one age and time.


Hi Formersda,

On the same day you posted the above you also posted the below:

I can put the whole chapter up Icy but you won’t read it, I am ensuring that I post to your level.

To your credit you actually posted the entire context which included the proof text you previously alluded to. (For someone who so frequently :cry: about others proof texting you certainly have no problem embracing this technique for your own purposes) But I wonder, did you read it? If you did, why would you post it since the context so obviously undoes the message you are trying to promote.

Let's examine the relevant context from the section titled, "The Believer's Rest."

The Believer’s Rest

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Now I know that the critics of Adventism are predisposed to reject and deny the main and plain meaning of Scripture, so I take this challenge on such that lurkers can see for themselves the duplicity of those who attack the Adventist church. From my experience most "former" sda's really have no desire to honestly examine the Scriptures. Watch and see.

Verses 1-3 sets the tone for what is to follow in the coming paragraphs. There is a promise of entering God's rest. Those of us "who have believed enter that rest." But there will be some who "shall not enter" His rest.

What rest is being referred to here? Immediately following the sad statement that there will be those who God swore in His wrath that "they shall not enter My rest" we are provided the answer. His rest is in direct relation to "His works [being] finished from the foundation of the world." This is a direct reference to the creation account found in Genesis and specifically chapter 2:1-3 in which Jesus rests after creating for six days. To further remove all doubt about this context verse 4 says, "concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works...'" So the rest that remains is speaking in relation to the rest of the seventh day.

Verse 9 indicates that this seventh day rest remains "for the people of God." Verse 10 again ties it all together indicating that this seventh day rest is for "the people of God" who are resting from their works just "as God did from His."

This is simple, milk of the Word stuff. As I said, one has to be predisposed to denial in order to miss the obvious implications of this passage of Scripture.

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Active member
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
Did God just rest on the 7th day after He created? Or did carry on working and creating?
 

Icyspark

Active member
Did God just rest on the 7th day after He created? Or did carry on working and creating?


More trolling. Respond to my post if you're talking to me. Address what I wrote instead of responding to yourself. I don't believe you will, but as the saying goes: hope springs eternal.

ATTN. LURKERS: As predicted, see how quickly this went off the rails?

From my experience most "former" sda's really have no desire to honestly examine the Scriptures. Watch and see.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
In this article we'll be examining the differences God set in place between His set of Ten Commandments and all the other ceremonial, civil and dietary ordinances.

1a. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God.
Exodus 20:1
"Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . "
Exodus 20:22
"GOD said to Moses, "Give this Message to the People of Israel: "You've experienced firsthand how I spoke with you from Heaven."
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
“Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.”

This is the only instance in the Pentateuch in which God directly proclaims a law to His people without the mediation of Moses. This to me says quite a lot about this particular law.

1b. Ordinances spoken by Moses
Exodus 24:3
“So Moses came and TOLD THE PEOPLE ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, ‘All the words which the LORD has said we will do.' "


2a. Ten Commandments engraved on tablets of stone by God Himself
Exodus 31:18
“And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.”

What significance might there be to the fact that God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Not only once did He write them, but twice (see Deuteronomy 10:1-4). Why wouldn’t God entrust Moses to write them down either time?

Exodus 34:28
"And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments."
Here we see that the Ten Commandments are indeed a covenant, but how many commandments are in this particular covenant?
Deuteronomy 5:22
"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. :unsure:
This argument breaks down rather swiftly when Jesus himself points to one of the greatest commandments which doesn't appear anywhere within your so-called only ten; i.e. "love your neighbor as yourself".

Furthermore, the sacrificial ordinances are not included with the 613 commandments. Perhaps if you look at those, you might discover why those are the only ordinances Paul is referring to when he speaks of them being done away with.

There are numerous commandments that are for our benefit and blessing. It makes no sense whatsoever to simply disregard them. Paul explicitly points to those ordinances that are "against" us. The preposition "against" should never be conflated or confused with the preposition "for" Jesus points out that "the Sabbath was made FOR man...etc.", but Paul is not referring to any of the other 603 commandments when he refers to "handwritten ordinances that were against us". He is instead referring to those ordinances that "were added because of transgressions". Those are explicit references to the sacrificial system which was done away at the cross.

Paul's reference is from Deuteronomy 31:26 which states:

"Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you."

The book or scroll should never be confused with the Tablets of STONE which are INSIDE the Ark, and FOR our benefit. Whenever someone sinned, the scroll was retrieved and consulted to determine what punishment or correction was necessary. You will find no evidence where a transgression required someone to observe the dietary laws Observing the dietary laws was not a punishment used against those who had transgressed the law. It was a commandment like all commandments, and was given as a blessing.
 

Formersda

Active member
More trolling. Respond to my post if you're talking to me. Address what I wrote instead of responding to yourself. I don't believe you will, but as the saying goes: hope springs eternal.

ATTN. LURKERS: As predicted, see how quickly this went off the rails?

Verse 9 indicates that this seventh day rest remains "for the people of God." Verse 10 again ties it all together indicating that this seventh day rest is for "the people of God" who are resting from their works just "as God did from His."
Where exactly in verse 9 does it say the seventh day?
Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (Where does it say seventh day in that verse?)
What rest is being referred to here? Immediately following the sad statement that there will be those who God swore in His wrath that "they shall not enter My rest" we are provided the answer. His rest is in direct relation to "His works [being] finished from the foundation of the world." This is a direct reference to the creation account found in Genesis and specifically chapter 2:1-3 in which Jesus rests after creating for six days
what rest you ask? The rest from creating, Jesus doesn’t get physically tired. But He rested from from all His works. In Genesis 2:2,3 is there a beginning and end to that seventh day? Does it say and that was the evening and the morning of the seventh day? If not then the rest is a continuous thing? There is no end to that day or beginning therefore God rested from His works continuously.
Did Adam and Eve keep that day which is their second day on earth as a Sabbath? If so what works did they rest from? So the rest which is being referred to here in Hebrews is that continuous rest had they not sinned.

Hebrews 4:7 says: He again fixes a certain day, “Today” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts. Today 13/08/21 is Friday does that mean today if I hear His voice I’ll enter the sabbath rest in verse 9? Cause verse 10 says, For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did Himself.
Do I have to wait till Saturday to enter His Sabbath rest? Or can I do it today Friday?

BTW the question you just asked me was the very one I asked you
Did God just rest on the 7th day after He created? Or did carry on working and creating?
 
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SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
This argument breaks down rather swiftly when Jesus himself points to one of the greatest commandments which doesn't appear anywhere within your so-called only ten; i.e. "love your neighbor as yourself".
AV Ro 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Paul applies these Decalogue commandments to "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Does this break down your argument('anywhere within your so-called only ten; i.e. "love your neighbor as yourself".') considering GOD personally revealing by Jesus to Paul's understanding ???

IOW: Is Paul lying about this association between the Decalogue(law) and the Two Great Commandments( of love ) espoused by Jesus ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

shnarkle

Well-known member


Where exactly in verse 9 does it say the seventh day?
Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (Where does it say seventh day in that verse?)
The word "Sabbath" from the very beginning was identified as the seventh day. There is no biblical evidence anywhere other than the "high days" or high Sabbath of the feast days of the Lord. Context is key. If they're referring to the weekly Sabbath, then they're automatically referring to the seventh day of the week.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Does this break down your argument('anywhere within your so-called only ten; i.e. "love your neighbor as yourself".') considering GOD personally revealing by Jesus to Paul's understanding ???
Not at all. The commandments to love others as oneself is NOT found in the decalogue. If so, where? The decalogue is a summation of the whole law. Christ simply creates a more concise summation. It should be noted here that a summation does not negate, or factor out anything, but instead adds it all together. So when Jesus sums up the entire law in two commandments, he is explicitly pointing out that these two laws are equivalent to the entire law. One cannot profane the Sabbath, or ignore the dietary laws without negating them. One cannot love God or their neighbor if they ignore or negate any of God's 613 commandments.
IOW: Is Paul lying about this association between the Decalogue(law) and the Two Great Commandments( of love ) espoused by Jesus ???
Not at all. Why do you think Paul is lying?

When my brother Judah comes to lunch I don't offer him a ham on rye sandwich. He knows that I keep God's commandments, or he wouldn't accept my invitation in the first place. You can't love your neighbor Judah by ignoring God's commandments. As Paul so poignantly tells us, if what you eat offends, stop offending them. Given that God himself points out that violating the dietary laws is 'an abomination', one has to wonder why one would want to do something so detestable to God.
 

Icyspark

Active member
This argument breaks down rather swiftly when Jesus himself points to one of the greatest commandments which doesn't appear anywhere within your so-called only ten; i.e. "love your neighbor as yourself".


Hi shnarkle,

The first four of the Ten Commandments would fall under the category of love for God. The last six commandments would fall under the category of loving your neighbor as yourself. The two category subsets would fall under the overarching general theme of love. Thus we could portray it as:

Love
Love God/man
Ten Commandments
Ordinances--Decrees--Laws
For those who prefer the general command of love I'd ask, how is love to be defined? Do you get to define it? God is actually the One who gets to define how love for Him is to be displayed and He says, "If you love me keep my commandments." He doesn't say, "If you love me, love me."


Furthermore, the sacrificial ordinances are not included with the 613 commandments. Perhaps if you look at those, you might discover why those are the only ordinances Paul is referring to when he speaks of them being done away with.


When I first read this I was like, Huh, I don't think I ever considered that. But then you know what? I went and looked up what the 613 commandments are and discovered that the sacrificial ordinances do indeed appear amongst them. What would make you think that the sacrificial ordinances would be excluded from this count?


There are numerous commandments that are for our benefit and blessing. It makes no sense whatsoever to simply disregard them. Paul explicitly points to those ordinances that are "against" us. The preposition "against" should never be conflated or confused with the preposition "for" Jesus points out that "the Sabbath was made FOR man...etc.", but Paul is not referring to any of the other 603 commandments when he refers to "handwritten ordinances that were against us". He is instead referring to those ordinances that "were added because of transgressions". Those are explicit references to the sacrificial system which was done away at the cross.

Paul's reference is from Deuteronomy 31:26 which states:

"Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you."

The book or scroll should never be confused with the Tablets of STONE which are INSIDE the Ark, and FOR our benefit. Whenever someone sinned, the scroll was retrieved and consulted to determine what punishment or correction was necessary. You will find no evidence where a transgression required someone to observe the dietary laws Observing the dietary laws was not a punishment used against those who had transgressed the law. It was a commandment like all commandments, and was given as a blessing.


I'm not sure, but based on your comments above 👆 it would appear that you didn't read my opening post. Or perhaps you only read a few lines? Either way, what you're saying here is similar to what I wrote in the OP.

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Active member
Where exactly in verse 9 does it say the seventh day?
Hebrews 4:9
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (Where does it say seventh day in that verse?)


Hi Formersda,

It looks to me like instead of honestly addressing the text you're instead going to an equivocating distraction technique?

Below I'm reposting the entire relevant passage with color coding so that you and others can quickly see the connecting words and phrases. The context provided in verse 4 indicates that the author is talking about the seventh day. He reaffirms this a second time saying, "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works." With this in mind the context carries over to verse 9 where the seventh day of the creation week is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Moses does the same thing in identifying the seventh day twice and then switching over to its venerated title of "the Sabbath day."

The Believer’s Rest

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
All I have time for right now.

I pray this helps.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Hi shnarkle,

The first four of the Ten Commandments would fall under the category of love for God. The last six commandments would fall under the category of loving your neighbor as yourself. The two category subsets would fall under the overarching general theme of love. Thus we could portray it as:

Love
Love God/man
Ten Commandments
Ordinances--Decrees--Laws
For those who prefer the general command of love I'd ask, how is love to be defined?
The Mosaic law is case law. So we have cases which define how love is manifested.
Do you get to define it? God is actually the One who gets to define how love for Him is to be displayed and He says, "If you love me keep my commandments." He doesn't say, "If you love me, love me."
Correct. So when God says to make sure that there is a railing around a balcony so as to protect others from falling, that's showing love of one's neighbor. When he says to be honest in one's commercial transactions, that's showing love for one's neighbor. These can all be summed up in the ten commandments, or even further with Jesus' two commandments, but again to sum up is not to factor out anything.
I went and looked up what the 613 commandments are and discovered that the sacrificial ordinances do indeed appear amongst them.
No one is denying that the sacrificial ordinances are not found "amongst them". I am pointing out that the sacrificial ordinances are not included or counted with the 613. In other words, you can count up the 613, and never count a single sacrificial ordinance. Why? Because the 613 are FOR your benefit while the sacrificial are as a direct result of one's transgressions and are instituted "AGAINST" those who transgress God's law.
What would make you think that the sacrificial ordinances would be excluded from this count?
Sorry, my bad. It's been a while since I've looked at this. I was thinking about how there are 248 positive commandments, and 365 negative commandments, and forgot that the ordinances are included. There are only 71 positive commandments and 194 negative commandments which adds up to 271. If we add those commandments that are to be carried out in the Promised land, then it brings the total up to 297.
I'm not sure, but based on your comments above 👆 it would appear that you didn't read my opening post.
It would appear you're not comprehending the entirety of what I'm posting.
Or perhaps you only read a few lines?
Read the whole thing.
Either way, what you're saying here is similar to what I wrote in the OP.

God bless!
Similar, but not identical. The ten commandments are a summation just like Jesus' two commandments are a summation. In both cases, nothing is being negated, annulled, or discarded.

However, I didn't get around to addressing this:

"The reason we no longer observe the Passover, Jewish feasts and offer animal sacrifices is because all of these were a part of the handwriting of ordinances which were a shadow pointing forward to the cross."
False. You're conflating Christ's Feast days with the sacrifices that were offered. Only the sacrifices are done away with, not the Feast Days. Paul even points out that "Christ is our Passover, therefore let us keep the feast" He is referring to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. (Passover refers to the Preparation day that preceded the Feast itself). Paul also doesn't say that they "were" a shadow, but that they "ARE" a shadow" If you look at the whole context he is asking who may judge with respect to diet, or "respect of an holyday" This word "respect" denotes "participation", or literally "taking part" which should never be confused with disrespect or non-participation. These are antonyms. Paul's conclusion is that it is the church that is to judge, rather than the previously mentioned "man". Your translation reads: "the body is of Christ". The word "of" is not found in the original manuscripts. The translation should read, "but the body of Christ (should judge)". The body of Christ is the church.

" Once Jesus died, offering an animal sacrifice would be denying His sacrifice. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandment covenant cannot be included in this text for many reasons but mainly because it was a memorial of something that took place in the past (Exodus 20:11)--it wasn’t pointing forward to the cross. The Sabbath is a memorial of God’s creative power. God’s creative power is why He is deserving of our worship and praise! (Revelation 14:7) The Sabbath is the day God rested from His creating and then He blessed, sanctified and hallowed the seventh day."

So you keep the seventh day Sabbath. The Feast Days also point to events that occurred in the past. The Seventh day Sabbath and the Feast Days also point to future events as well though. Regardless, none of them are sacrifices so they're still in effect.

Your bible is full of examples of prophetic descriptions of the feast days being observed by everyone, Jew and gentile alike. In fact, it points out that those who don't observe them will be cursed with droughts and other calamities from God. So one has to wonder why God would have Christ's bride ignore Christ's own feast days. It makes no sense whatsoever.
 

Formersda

Active member
Hi Formersda,

It looks to me like instead of honestly addressing the text you're instead going to an equivocating distraction technique?

Below I'm reposting the entire relevant passage with color coding so that you and others can quickly see the connecting words and phrases. The context provided in verse 4 indicates that the author is talking about the seventh day. He reaffirms this a second time saying, "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works." With this in mind the context carries over to verse 9 where the seventh day of the creation week is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Moses does the same thing in identifying the seventh day twice and then switching over to its venerated title of "the Sabbath day."

The Believer’s Rest

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
All I have time for right now.

I pray this helps.
You asked the question about resting, I answered it.
I have entered that rest, that continuous rest, I don’t have to wait till Saturday to enter it I can enter that rest anytime in fact it’s 24/7.
You did not answer my question about TODAY.
So please stop being aggressive towards me and do not include me in your repeated putting up the same thing.
I answered the question on rest you asked.
 

pythons

Active member
The Ten Commandments are all precepts of the Moral or Natural Law, its for that reason they are obligatory at all times - not because a bearded man came down from a mountain with those commandments written on stone tablets but because we were created by a Moral God who instilled these basic values into us.

All Ancient cultures had laws against murdering, stealing, adultery, cheating, setting aside some time for the honoring of God(s) - these things were common to all peoples HOWEVER the Israelites were pulled out of the nations of the earth and given a specific set of commandments that dictated HOW they were to honor their Parents, their God, observe their Sabbath, etc. , etc.

The Israelites were "supernaturally communicated" rules that go well beyond human nature - these types of laws are called CEREMONIAL LAWS [ laws that requires supernatural communication] these ceremonial laws were what SEPARATED Israel from all the other nations of the earth. NO ONE is commanded by nature to set aside the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday for the Sabbath OR to not eat a Shrimp or BLT like a person is commanded by nature to know stealing, murder and sleeping with another person's wife / husband IS WRONG.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
NO ONE is commanded by nature to set aside the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday for the Sabbath OR to not eat a Shrimp or BLT like a person is commanded by nature to know stealing, murder and sleeping with another person's wife / husband IS WRONG.
False. Eating garbage is most definitely wrong, and that is exactly how the bible describes it. Moreover, the bible explicitly states that eating garbage (Hebrew "tame") is "detestable" to God. That's what an abomination means.

For those not paying attention, God places eating swine or shellfish on the same level as sodomy, bestiality and necrophilia. So either eating that BLT is as detestable as sodomy or bestiality, or those behaviors are no worse than eating a BLT. Take your pick.
 

pythons

Active member
False. Eating garbage is most definitely wrong, and that is exactly how the bible describes it. Moreover, the bible explicitly states that eating garbage (Hebrew "tame") is "detestable" to God. That's what an abomination means.

For those not paying attention, God places eating swine or shellfish on the same level as sodomy, bestiality and necrophilia. So either eating that BLT is as detestable as sodomy or bestiality, or those behaviors are no worse than eating a BLT. Take your pick.

That's a cultic perspective shnarkle.

Leviticus 11,7
he is unclean to YOU [an Israelite].

Deuteronomy 14,8
It is unclean unto YOU [Israelite's]

Leviticus 26, 46
These [ and the other ceremonials ]are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Not paying attention produces the type of fruit you're attempting to peddle here - that man is compelled by nature not to eat a shrimp cocktail or pork chop. You do realize that the lowly chicken has caused more food borne illness and death then all the pork, shrimp and catfish combined or did this fact escape your education ( if one could call it that )?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
That's a cultic perspective shnarkle.

Leviticus 11,7
he is unclean to YOU [an Israelite].

Deuteronomy 14,8
It is unclean unto YOU [Israelite's]

Leviticus 26, 46
These [ and the other ceremonials ]are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
All quite true, and spotlights the fact that this is the covenant that God has made with his people. Everyone else is free to eat whatever they please. God really couldn't care less as Paul points out in the first chapter of Romans.
that man is compelled by nature not to eat a shrimp cocktail or pork chop.
Correction; the man of God is compelled not to eat garbage.
You do realize that the lowly chicken has caused more food borne illness and death then all the pork, shrimp and catfish combined or did this fact escape your education ( if one could call it that )?
Please document how you came to this conclusion.
 
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