Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

kamaeq

Active member
Read it. I posted facts whereas you just posted your opinions.
No, I posted a witness from my own observations over many years.

If fact, you are simply restating a portion of my point on this topic and your own opinion on "figures of speech".
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
No, I posted a witness from my own observations over many years.
And those observations are false.
If fact, you are simply restating a portion of my point on this topic and your own opinion on "figures of speech".
False. I'm drawing from not only the commonly accepted definitions of each and every figure presented, but presenting examples of those figures as they're used in the bible to PROVE my point. You haven't address much less refuted ANY of them.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
No, I posted a witness from my own observations over many years.

If fact, you are simply restating a portion of my point on this topic and your own opinion on "figures of speech".
Sorry, but I'm mixing this discussion up with another thread dealing with the figure Metaphor with regards to the statement "this is my body". Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just realized that what you're responding to isn't really much of a point to begin with.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.
Esther 4-5.
Esther tells messengers to fast for "3 days, night and day." It doesn't say what time of day or night this occurs, but my sense is that it doesn't matter for the story. In ancient Israel, a Day was made of a night first, then 12 hours of a daylit day. Presumably she immediately starts fasting. Then "on" the third day, she stops fasting and gives the king a banquet.

Based on the text, you could have this chronology:
Night 1 No fasting
Day 1 Esther gives the message and starts fasting

Night 2 Fast
Day 2 Fast

Night 3 Fast
Day 3 Esther stops fasting and gives a dinner.

In this case, there would be only two nights. Technically I think that the messengers could have arrived on Night 1, but it doesn't matter in practice. The point of the phrase "night and day" is that the fast must be continuous throughout the time allotted, not that the fast must cover specifically each of the nights making up the three 24 hour days.
 

kamaeq

Active member
Esther 4-5.
Esther tells messengers to fast for "3 days, night and day." It doesn't say what time of day or night this occurs, but my sense is that it doesn't matter for the story. In ancient Israel, a Day was made of a night first, then 12 hours of a daylit day. Presumably she immediately starts fasting. Then "on" the third day, she stops fasting and gives the king a banquet.

Based on the text, you could have this chronology:
Night 1 No fasting
Day 1 Esther gives the message and starts fasting

Night 2 Fast
Day 2 Fast

Night 3 Fast
Day 3 Esther stops fasting and gives a dinner.

In this case, there would be only two nights. Technically I think that the messengers could have arrived on Night 1, but it doesn't matter in practice. The point of the phrase "night and day" is that the fast must be continuous throughout the time allotted, not that the fast must cover specifically each of the nights making up the three 24 hour days.
BINGO!
Not sure if it is exclusively Jewish, but IIRC it is Semitic or Eastern that they count any portion of a time period as the entire period.

If a king was crowned one second before midnight on 31 December (using our calendar) and was assassinated one second after midnight on 1 January (okay, they didn't have clocks that precise, but you know what I mean), then that king would have ruled for two years.

IMO most of this issue comes from the Century of Myths, a.k.a. the 19th Century. Soooooo many myths about things made up, mainly because "proper" European professors considered themselves so superior intellectually that they imposed their beliefs about propriety.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
6. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality

"X Days and X Nights" was an expression in common usage, and it was apparently used for the spiritual meaning of the numbers, not for an exact "no more no less" geological calendar counting.

1 Samuel 30:1 & 11-14
And it came to pass, when David and his men were come to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had invaded the south, and Ziklag, and smitten Ziklag, and burned it with fire; ... And they found an Egyptian in the field, and brought him to David, and gave him bread, and he did eat; and they made him drink water; and they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights. And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick. We made an invasion upon the south of the Cherethites, and upon the coast which belongeth to Judah, and upon the south of Caleb; and we burned Ziklag with fire.

Jonah 1:15-17
So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging. Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows. Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
  • "forty days and forty nights" of the rain in the great flood (Genesis 7:4 and 12).
  • "forty days and forty nights" of Moses' fasts on the mount (Exodus 24:18 and 34:28, Deuteronomy 9:9, 11, 18, and 24, Deuteronomy 10:10).
  • "forty days and forty nights" of Elijah's fast on his journey to Horeb (1 Kings 19:8)
  • "seven days and seven nights" of Jobs' friends' silence (Job 2:13)
  • "forty days and forty nights" of Jesus' fast in the wilderness (Matthew 4:2)
It's hard for me to tell whether these expressions mean that we could literally count 40 literal light periods and 40 literal night periods for these events. Clearly, the authors were trying to use round figures of 40, 7, and 3 and were trying to use the expressions to show continuity of the events, ie. Jobs' friends weren't silent just at daytime only.

In the story of 1001 Arabian Nights, a lady starts a new story every night in order to keep him interested in her, because if he killed her, he wouldn't hear the end of the story the next night. I was disappointed to learn that the tale "1001 Arabian Nights" does not contain 1001 stories. The 1001 is used because 1000 is quite large, showing that she was captive for many days, and because 1000 is a "round number." In ancient Judaism, 3, 7, and 40 were also special numbers, and they were full of spiritual and religious meaning.

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So in conclusion, it's not really clear if these Hebrew expressions meant literally that the events covered exactly X days and exactly X literal nights. Certainly, this is a common Hebrew idiom. When reading the Bible stories, it comes into my head that the events covered exactly that number of days and nights, so I am inclined to think that they would. But due to the inexactitude of ancient Jewish counting and the fact that the author uses the numbers for spiritual reasons and symbolism, the number of actual days for those events might not literally and geologically be the same as the number "X" given.

My own guess is that "heart of the earth" refers to (A) the earthly rulers (as in the "heart of Egypt" alluding to Egypt's rulers in Deuteronomy), and/or to (B) Sheol, a spiritual place represented as being deep under the earth. In support of B, we have Paul's words in Ephesians 4, that Christ was there in the depths of the Earth, using it as an expression for Sheol, not for the tomb. Sometimes in the OT prophecies, a symbol has more than one fulfillment. In this case, the three days and 3 nights could refer to literal light and dark periods, as the three nights would start with His trial before the rulers in Jerusalem, or with the darkness during His death on the cross.
 

rstrats

Member
rakovsky,

The Esther account may be one example if "three days, night or day" means the same thing as "three days and three nights". But even if it does, one examples doesn't show common usage.

As for the 1 Samuel account, nothing in it precludes at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
rakovsky,

The Esther account may be one example if "three days, night or day" means the same thing as "three days and three nights". But even if it does, one examples doesn't show common usage.

As for the 1 Samuel account, nothing in it precludes at least a portion of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of 3 night times.
My previous message gives 14 verses with the expression "X Days and X Nights." It seems it was meant as a round number. It's doubtful that these were all exactly literally eg. 40 days and 40 nights, and not actually eg. 41 days or 39 nights.

I don't take the viewpoint that the Bible is everywhere self explanatory about everything. It seems an exaggerated demand to prove that not only was 3 Days and 3 Nights a common expression, as opposed to just X Days and X Nights, but also that it was commonly used in such a way that it must not have come out to the full exact number of daylit or dark periods. This is because the accounts are not detailed enough to show whether it would come out exactly. We don't have the exact hour for example, for the events.

Nonetheless, I'm inclined to think that it does mean the literal number of dark and light periods like you are suggesting, and that "Heart of the Earth" is the key issue for your OP. In this case, it refers allegorically to earthly rulers or to Sheol.

Peace.
 

rstrats

Member
rakovsky,
re: "Nonetheless, I'm inclined to think that it does mean the literal number of dark and light periods like you are suggesting, and that 'Heart of the Earth' is the key issue for your OP."

Actually, there are three key issues, i.e., a belief in a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection, the belief that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, and the belief that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved or was involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. All three of those beliefs are needed by those to whom this topic is directed.
 

rstrats

Member
BINGO!
Not sure if it is exclusively Jewish, but IIRC it is Semitic or Eastern that they count any portion of a time period as the entire period.

But where was it common to count no portion of a time period, i.e., a daytime as a daytime or to count no portion of a night time as a night time?
 

kamaeq

Active member
But where was it common to count no portion of a time period, i.e., a daytime as a daytime or to count no portion of a night time as a night time?
Sorry, I seem to be a bit dense this morning, could you rephrase your question please? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking.

If it is what I think it is, then it may be something you would have to research yourself.
 

rstrats

Member
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking.
The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth". There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

If it is what I think it is, then it may be something you would have to research yourself.

That's what I'm doing - asking anyone from the above what instances/examples they have to legitimately say that it was common usage.
 

rakovsky

Well-known member
Nice job with persistence, Rstrat.

However the Bible is limited enough in size, despite being a giant Book, that many expressions occur only a few times or even once.

Take for example the Nehiloth in Psalm 5. You have to reconstruct what it means because it us so rare.

The Bible is not really easily self explanatory about everything like some Protestants claim.

Regarding the passage's real meaning: Paul talks about Jesus being in the depths of the earth as in Hades. So the term Heart of the Earth is key. In that sense, the first of the 3 nights can be the darkness over the whole earth on Good Friday at His death.
 
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rstrats

Member
Regarding the passage's real meaning: Paul talks about Jesus being in the depths of the earth as in Hades. So the term Heart of the Earth is key. In that sense, the first of the 3 nights can be the darkness over the whole earth on Good Friday at His death.


That would be an issue for a different topic. This one is only concerned with regard to anyone who thinks the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
 

kamaeq

Active member
The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth". There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.



That's what I'm doing - asking anyone from the above what instances/examples they have to legitimately say that it was common usage.
It is just something that I've come to know through studying a variety of sources. They have been discussed earlier in the thread. Jesus was using a term that meant three days (or parts thereof) and referencing death. The demand that these be absolutely literal and to the second puts a requirement that isn't in that culture or even ours.

I meant go out and study the sources yourself. I did that on this subject back before there was an internet, just books.
 

kamaeq

Active member
Other than asking them here, how am I suppose to find out by studying other sources what they are using to say that it was common?


What exactly do you think the subject is?
Logic, prayer, comparison of sources, consultation of the Bible as appropriate, etc. In some cases, you simply defer and await more information.

The ability in to trust in the Bible as written, commonly known as Biblical inerrancy. Look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical inerrancy.

On this particular subject, most people, including myself, start with: Friday night, Saturday, Sunday morning... That isn't three days. Then one finds out that the Jews count days starting at dusk and count a day as a darkness and a light. Then one finds from chasing down "errors" in the chronology in Kings and Chronicles that the Jews writing it counted partial years as full ones for determining length of reign as well as counting as years as co-rulers for each ruler. It isn't just Jewish, it is cultural to that part of the world. Lots of little details in the Bible if you dig into them.
 

rstrats

Member
Logic, prayer, comparison of sources, consultation of the Bible as appropriate...

I don't see how any of those will provide what folks are actually thinking.

Also, I don't see where you say what you think the subject of this topic is.
 

kamaeq

Active member
Comparison of sources finds out what the sources are thinking as does consultation of the Bible. Is it of use to find out what people around you think? Yes, it can be, but then a lot of Christian in the USA think "render unto Caesar" means the federal government, like the President is a mini Caesar, so all should "cheerfully submit" to the feds. In truth, the founding documents point out that the free citizenry are the Caesar of the USA.
Does this also mean that the majority vote is the Caesar? Nope, the USA was specifically not set up as a mob rule democracy (although the socialist faction keep trying to make it that way with lowering the voting age and "fortifying" elections), but many like it because it is easier to seize control.

I gave my opinion many posts ago. Way back on the first page.
 
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