Communion Means Symbolic Otherwise Its Idolatry

shnarkle

Well-known member
William F. Albright and C.S. Mann comment on Matthew 16:19 --

"Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah's position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as 'over the household' [2 Kings 15:5]....It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle....The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the 'keys.' The clauses 'on earth,' 'in heaven', have reference to the permanent character of the steward's work." (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197)
Interesting, but blatantly false. The descriptions of the kingdom within scripture bear no resemblance to what the Catholic church (or any others for that matter) has manifested throughout history up to the present day. The examples are seen in every page of the gospels.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
If Paul really meant that, then how can any one differentiate from idolatry which is objects or food made by men's hands and becoming an idol for what idolaters believe has the presence of a god in it?
If it's the presence of God, then it's not idolatry. Just aside not, Orthodox do not worship the Eucharist. Christ said "eat" and "drink." It is Roman Catholics who place the Eucharist in a monstrance and have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

All I can ask you to do.. is go to Jesus Christ in prayer and ask Him to help you see the truth in His words in case you are offending Him and you know it not.
I go to Christ in prayer daily. Just did today at our parishes 6th hour prayer service which we have every Thursday afternoon were I am a chanter/reader, Vespers on Wednesday and Saturday nights as well as Divine Liturgy on Sundays.

I have found the Truth. It was a long journey to Orthodoxy but I loved and have been blessed by every minute of it. I could say the same to you. Pray that Christ will show you truth of the ancient faith. The faith which was founded by Christ, given to His Apostles and spread throughout the world where we see their teaching continue.

Blessings!
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Using the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone, where do the Scriptures teach the Scriptures alone?
They don't, but then that's not the point either. I asked a specific question regarding a claim made by someone else, e.g. "Scriptures affirm repeatedly that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist."
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
The Mass as a daily celebration – 394 AD
The Didache

Assemble on the Lord’s Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist: but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23—24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, "Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations" [Mal. 1:11, 14] (Didache 14 [A.D. 70).

Ignatius of Antioch

Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his blood, and one single altar of sacrifice —even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
 
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Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Interesting, but blatantly false. The descriptions of the kingdom within scripture bear no resemblance to what the Catholic church (or any others for that matter) has manifested throughout history up to the present day. The examples are seen in every page of the gospels.
Do you need more Protestant 'experts'?
 

Hark

Well-known member
Worshipping flesh and blood would be idolatry. Worshipping God incarnate is not idolatry.
The wise men did it.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Neither Mary nor Joseph rebuked them for it.

The leper did it before he was even healed and he was not rebuked for it.

Matthew 8:2And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

The ruler did it before making his request

Matthew 9:18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

The sailors that were saved did this.

Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

His disciples did it too after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Look at what Thomas had done and was not rebuked for it.

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus is God for why they worshipped Him.
Scriptures affirm repeatedly that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
RCC is misapplying scripture because scripture affirms what is considered an idol; that which was made by men's hands and worshipped as a god. You cannot say that about Jesus.
 

Hark

Well-known member
the idolatry is this very body : believing in it and all its needs and wants and believing it comes from God.
The wise men did it.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Neither Mary nor Joseph rebuked them for it.

The leper did it before he was even healed and he was not rebuked for it.

Matthew 8:2And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

The ruler did it before making his request

Matthew 9:18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

The sailors that were saved did this.

Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

His disciples did it too after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Look at what Thomas had done and was not rebuked for it.

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus is God for why they worshipped Him.
communion is a small thing compared to the real idolatry that will prevent much of Jacobl from going to the Change.

RCC is misapplying scripture because scripture affirms what is considered an idol; that which was made by men's hands and worshipped as a god. You cannot say that about Jesus.
 

Hark

Well-known member
If it's the presence of God, then it's not idolatry. Just aside not, Orthodox do not worship the Eucharist. Christ said "eat" and "drink." It is Roman Catholics who place the Eucharist in a monstrance and have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
Thanks for the correction regarding the difference between the RCC and the Orthodox, but calling it a sacrament is how the RCC place the Eucharist to be monstrous. If they believed His Presence is in the Eucharist, then how could they not worship it as if the same as worshiping Him?
I go to Christ in prayer daily. Just did today at our parishes 6th hour prayer service which we have every Thursday afternoon were I am a chanter/reader, Vespers on Wednesday and Saturday nights as well as Divine Liturgy on Sundays.

I have found the Truth. It was a long journey to Orthodoxy but I loved and have been blessed by every minute of it. I could say the same to you. Pray that Christ will show you truth of the ancient faith. The faith which was founded by Christ, given to His Apostles and spread throughout the world where we see their teaching continue.

Blessings!
Do consider that which was made by man's hands and believing there is a presence of their god in it is what makes it idolatry even though they may not worship outwardly the work made by man's hands, but they regard it.

If we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, His Presence would never be in the Eucharist nor the wine. When He is in us always since we had first come to & believed in Him whereby we are filled with the Spirit, then where is the need to receive His Presence at communion?

And yet to prevent and even rebuke the RCC for doing what they are doing at communion, then the Orthodox have to reject the idea that His Presence is in the Eucharist & the wine at communion. Indeed, they should drop the term sacrament and the Eucharist and the Mass and not call communion "holy" when it is an ordinance for believers to follow in remembrance of Him in declaring the Lord's death till He comes.

If Orthodox had not laid the groundwork of idols for the RCC to make it monstrous, then maybe the RCC would not have split off from them.

Thank you for sharing, but contentions still remain and further expounded upon to illustrate the just cause for those contentions.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
RCC is misapplying scripture because scripture affirms what is considered an idol;
The Catholic Church wrote the NT, selected the books for the Bible, and bound/preserved the Bible! Your personal interpretations are incorrect.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

on your own intelligence do not rely;

In all your ways be mindful of him,

and he will make straight your paths.​
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The Catholic Church wrote the NT, selected the books for the Bible, and bound/preserved the Bible! Your personal interpretations are incorrect.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

on your own intelligence do not rely;

In all your ways be mindful of him,

and he will make straight your paths.​
The KJV which most follow, was composed by a group of men who decided what you should and should not believe and compiled in a book and was authorized by a king who didnt even believe in God LOL.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
The KJV which most follow, was composed by a group of men who decided what you should and should not believe and compiled in a book and was authorized by a king who didnt even believe in God LOL.
Go back about 1,550 years to the writings. [before the KJV]
 

Hark

Well-known member
and yet Our Savior called Simon 'Rock'
No. Stone. That is what Cephas means.

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Scripture has Jesus plainly citing what Cephas means; a stone.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
No. Stone. That is what Cephas means.

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Scripture has Jesus plainly citing what Cephas means; a stone.
D.A. Carson (Protestant Evangelical) --

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover, the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ('you are kepha' and 'on this kepha'), since the word was used both for a name and for a 'rock.' The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name." (Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1984], volume 8, page 368, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 17-18)

"The word Peter petros, meaning 'rock,' (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)
 

Hark

Well-known member
The Catholic Church is the Church Christ established and protected 2,000 years ago.
Where was the first Catholic Church? If you say Jerusalem per the Book of Acts 2 at Pentecost, then you cannot say Rome.

And if you say Jerusalem, then when was it moved to Rome in representing the Catholic Church when Peter was killed in Rome? Doesn't sound like Peter had established a church there in Rome. Paul seems to have done it, but it seems the church Peter built had to be somewhere else.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Where was the first Catholic Church?
In local homes of the first Christians
And if you say Jerusalem, then when was it moved to Rome in representing the Catholic Church when Peter was killed in Rome? Doesn't sound like Peter had established a church there in Rome. Paul seems to have done it, but it seems the church Peter built had to be somewhere else.
Romans tells us a different story.
 

Hark

Well-known member
D.A. Carson (Protestant Evangelical) --

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover, the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ('you are kepha' and 'on this kepha'), since the word was used both for a name and for a 'rock.' The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name." (Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1984], volume 8, page 368, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 17-18)

"The word Peter petros, meaning 'rock,' (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)
An errant Protestant, for sure. Mayhap a Jesuit in disguise, only God knows.

Scripture tells me that his name of Cephas aka Peter .. means stone, not rock. The reference attempts to make the subtle difference as if there is none at all, forgets that rock in the Old Testament always refer to deity.

Bible Gateway results of rock & god meaning same thing Plus. you have this plainly in scripture in the N.T.

1 Corinthians 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

May God cause the increase because otherwise you will regard it not.
 
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