Communion Means Symbolic Otherwise Its Idolatry

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
An errant Protestant, for sure. Mayhap a Jesuit in disguise, only God knows.
R.T. France (Anglican/Protestant Evangelical) --

"The name Peter means 'Rock', and Jesus played on this meaning to designate Peter as the foundation of the new people of God. His leadership would involve the authority of the steward, whose keys symbolized his responsibility to regulate the affairs of the household. Peter would exercise his leadership by his authority to declare what is and is not permissible in the kingdom of heaven (to bind and to loose have this meaning in rabbinic writings)....It is sometimes suggested that because the word for 'rock' (petra) differs from the name Petros, the 'rock' referred to is not Peter himself but the confession he has just made of Jesus as Messiah. In Aramaic, however, the same term kefa would appear in both places; the change in Greek is due to the fact that petra, the normal word for rock, is feminine in gender, and therefore not suitable as a name for Simon! The echo of Peter's name remains obvious, even in Greek; he is the rock, in the sense outlined above." (France, New Bible Commentary with consulting editors Carson, France, Motyer, Wenham [Intervarsity Press, 1994], page 925, 926)
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
His disciples were not saved yet until the day of Pentecost as receiving the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost when Jesus was no longer present with them as promised from the Father in John 14th chapter

None I have read so what are you taking about?
He's trolling. I presented clear proof with examples. He ignored all of them. If he truly believes in the golden rule, then he wants to be Ignored. I think it's time I obliged him his request.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
He's trolling. I presented clear proof with examples. He ignored all of them. If he truly believes in the golden rule, then he wants to be Ignored. I think it's time I obliged him his request.
So you have nothing.... got it!

passe une bonne journée
 

ziapueblo

Active member
They don't, but then that's not the point either. I asked a specific question regarding a claim made by someone else, e.g. "Scriptures affirm repeatedly that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist."
As an Orthodox Christian, I would say this is found in John 6, the Mystical Supper (Last Supper) accounts and well as St. Paul epistle to the Corinthians along with types of the Eucharist in the Old Testament.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
As an Orthodox Christian,
It makes no difference who you are. What matters is whether this term is found anywhere in scripture.
I would say this is found in John 6,
We're all familiar with what your claims are. What we'd like to see is evidence of these claims.
the Mystical Supper (Last Supper) accounts and well as St. Paul epistle to the Corinthians
Those examples don't provide any evidence whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite.
along with types of the Eucharist in the Old Testament.
Fallacy of Begging the Question. There is no type without an antitype which you have yet to present.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
Thanks for the correction regarding the difference between the RCC and the Orthodox, but calling it a sacrament is how the RCC place the Eucharist to be monstrous.
Many Orthodox Christians in the West use the term Sacrament because most people know the word and how it relates to the Eucharist, marriage, etc. but technically we call them the Mysteries. For example, the Mystical Supper (Eucharist) or the Mystery of Baptism. The word sacramentum, Latin, is used in Roman law to describe a legal action and the Orthodox do not see it this way.

If Orthodox had not laid the groundwork of idols for the RCC to make it monstrous, then maybe the RCC would not have split off from them.
How did the Orthodox lay "the groundwork of idols"?
 

ziapueblo

Active member
It makes no difference who you are. What matters is whether this term is found anywhere in scripture.
First off, do you believe in the Trinity? I assume you do and I assume you use the word Trinity, which is not found in the Scriptures.

Second, Eucharist, ευχαριστία, is found in the Scriptures and defined as to be thankful, which is found in Luke 22:17, 19.

We're all familiar with what your claims are. What we'd like to see is evidence of these claims.
These are not my claims. I did not make them up by reading the Scriptures and interpreting them for myself. This is the teaching of the early Church, whom heard the Apostles teach and preach.

Those examples don't provide any evidence whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite.
Really?

Fallacy of Begging the Question. There is no type without an antitype which you have yet to present.
No one asked me to present anything as of yet.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Go back about 1,550 years to the writings. [before the KJV]
I have many years ago as in William Tyndall, Coverdale Bible, Matthew Bible, Great Bible, Bishops bible, Geneva, just to mention a few I have read and studied, right down to the ancient and most ancient copies in which there are no original manuscripts only copies of copies that has been edited over and over and over again. The KJV was derived from all of these bibles and more, and if you will note the ( ) in it has been edited. as well.

The bible is not the word of God it is a tutorial for how to receieve the word of God in you from God Himself.
 

Hark

Well-known member
R.T. France (Anglican/Protestant Evangelical) --

"The name Peter means 'Rock', and Jesus played on this meaning to designate Peter as the foundation of the new people of God. His leadership would involve the authority of the steward, whose keys symbolized his responsibility to regulate the affairs of the household. Peter would exercise his leadership by his authority to declare what is and is not permissible in the kingdom of heaven (to bind and to loose have this meaning in rabbinic writings)....It is sometimes suggested that because the word for 'rock' (petra) differs from the name Petros, the 'rock' referred to is not Peter himself but the confession he has just made of Jesus as Messiah. In Aramaic, however, the same term kefa would appear in both places; the change in Greek is due to the fact that petra, the normal word for rock, is feminine in gender, and therefore not suitable as a name for Simon! The echo of Peter's name remains obvious, even in Greek; he is the rock, in the sense outlined above." (France, New Bible Commentary with consulting editors Carson, France, Motyer, Wenham [Intervarsity Press, 1994], page 925, 926)
I can prove that R.T. France is wrong by how Jesus gives the same keys to those believers in the church to correct a brother in error that if he refuses correction, the 3 are to tell it to the church to excommunicate that unrepentant brother, and even when praying for something that 2 or 3 agree to.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

it is the very same keys as described that the RCC & you misunderstood as being only given to Peter when obviously, in light of His words here, Jesus was giving those keys to all of His disciples & to every saved believer.
 

Hark

Well-known member
I am talking about the book of Romans.... reread for clarity
Well, at least you had clarified your reference to Romans telling us a different story.

Then like I said, I have not read anything in the Book of Romans to the effect you are validating Peter as that Pope in Rome. Paul never made any such inference to Peter as being the head of the church or the disciple to go to if a new church was not sure how scripture was to be applied. In fact, Peter is not mentioned once in the Book of Romans at all.

So you will have to clarify your point some more in regards to what that story is that the Book of Romans is telling us about Peter.
 

Terry43

Active member
Worshipping flesh and blood would be idolatry. Worshipping God incarnate is not idolatry.

Scriptures affirm repeatedly that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
If a Muslim that hates Christianity and Christ goes to communion does he "receive" Christ? If someone breaks into a RC church and burns the tabernacle did they burn Christ?
 

Hark

Well-known member
Many Orthodox Christians in the West use the term Sacrament because most people know the word and how it relates to the Eucharist, marriage, etc. but technically we call them the Mysteries. For example, the Mystical Supper (Eucharist) or the Mystery of Baptism. The word sacramentum, Latin, is used in Roman law to describe a legal action and the Orthodox do not see it this way.
Have you ever investigated the so called split of the RCC from Orthodox? Not just from the Orthodox point of view, but the RCC's as well? Specifically during the time when schism was arising which caused the split? It does beg the question as to who came up with the term sacrament first; from the RCC side or the Orthodox side? Then who came up with the actual term first calling the bread the Eucharist? Then who came up with the term Mass first. And what point in time during all of that on the RCC side did they turn it into something monstrous? Did the Orthodox call the RCC on it when it had happened? Or how long has it been monstrous before the RCC officially split from he Orthodox?
How did the Orthodox lay "the groundwork of idols"?
Well, after reading those questions I had just mentioned, how else can the RCC make something monstrous?

Define what an idol is; is it something made with man's hands and believing that to have a spirit of a god in it? What is the difference between that and when the RCC go one step further to worship that which was made by man's hands, believing His Presence is in the bread & wine?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
If a Muslim that hates Christianity and Christ goes to communion does he "receive" Christ? If someone breaks into a RC church and burns the tabernacle did they burn Christ?
What you dont understand is the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation as you have just described, but is within you Luke 17:20-21.

Not many though follow the way of Jesus to be like him in the father yourself do they?
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Well, at least you had clarified your reference to Romans telling us a different story.

Then like I said, I have not read anything in the Book of Romans to the effect you are validating Peter as that Pope in Rome. Paul never made any such inference to Peter as being the head of the church or the disciple to go to if a new church was not sure how scripture was to be applied. In fact, Peter is not mentioned once in the Book of Romans at all.

So you will have to clarify your point some more in regards to what that story is that the Book of Romans is telling us about Peter.
In post #97 you said "Doesn't sound like Peter had established a church there in Rome. Paul seems to have done it, but it seems the church Peter built had to be somewhere else."

In Romans 15:20-24 Paul aspires to proclaim the gospel, but not where Christ has already been named.... not building on another's foundation [who would have that kind of clout?]
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
it is the very same keys as described that the RCC & you misunderstood as being only given to Peter when obviously, in light of His words here, Jesus was giving those keys to all of His disciples & to every saved believer.
If you are scripture only, where do you see the keys in Mt 18?
 

Hark

Well-known member
He's trolling. I presented clear proof with examples. He ignored all of them. If he truly believes in the golden rule, then he wants to be Ignored. I think it's time I obliged him his request.
Don't forget to pray for him too. Sometimes I think the forces of darkness can blind a believer. Sometimes a doubleminded state can be in the mind of a believer and know it not. Sometimes pride keeps a believer from receiving His words to repent from that he has spent many years serving. I mean who wants to believe they wasted their service of love and finance in supporting a lying church taking advantage of him?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

But yeah.. when an unbeliever in this forum is obviously trolling and not being sincere in asking questions, I trust the Lord to know when to put such a one on ignore. When fellow saved believers insult & antagonize like a troll, I put them on ignore. It takes a lot for them to get on ignore, but saved believers can be put on ignore if all they do is be carnal towards me.

Although there is a point when someone is not hearing me, that I am not sure how long in patience I am to wait until I am to withdraw, but Jesus helps me to trust Him as my Good Shepherd to direct my foot steps if I make the wrong decision, on not withdrawing or even when withdrawing.

Proverbs 16: 9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;...

13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
First off, do you believe in the Trinity?
No.
I assume you do and I assume you use the word Trinity,
This seems to be one of your biggest problems.
which is not found in the Scriptures.
Agreed.
Second, Eucharist, ευχαριστία, is found in the Scriptures and defined as to be thankful, which is found in Luke 22:17, 19.
Good point! Bravo! You actually addressed and refuted the claim.
These are not my claims. I did not make them up by reading the Scriptures and interpreting them for myself. This is the teaching of the early Church, whom heard the Apostles teach and preach.
And misinterpreted what they heard.
Really?


No one asked me to present anything as of yet.
This has gone on long enough. Thanks anyways.

Go with God.

Be blessed.
 
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