Comporting the Biblical witness with the Biblical testimony

dberrie2020

Well-known member
berrie2020 said:
I'm going to ask you what link you are attempting to make in those points--and the testimony linking walking in the light--with His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you feel it contradicts the scripture above? (if you do) What is your reasoning for those points?(I think they are good questions--I just don't see what your point is--please explain that for us, because I want to focus in on the point where the scripture links walking in the light with His Blood--and how it fits Lutheran theology)

Bonnie said:
Why won't you answer my simple questions about Eph. 2?

There seems to be a tendency of those who debate the scriptures--whenever one scripture is posted--- to show a correlation, or non-correlation-- between one's theology, and the posted scripture--the interlocker then posts an opposing scripture.( I do it also).

For me--that not only does not make one's point, in and by itself--it renders the Biblical text a very unreliable source of truth.

One must have a way of collating the scriptures--or admit they are unreliable. (I believe the scriptures are reliable)

So--let's start here--with the above two scriptures.(and, BTW--I think it goes deeper than that--but let's start there)

When Paul uses the term "works"(Eph2 as an example)--that is often a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not a reference to walking in the light, keeping the commandments, or taking care of the poor.

IOW--some scholars have recognized the problem presented in throwing scriptures against one another, particularly Paul's words--and have come to this conclusion:

"New Perspective on Paul—


The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.

Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general. "


I believe that is a very good explanation--and one I have taken for some time--and offers one explanation as to how one can comport Paul with not only the 1John1:7 testimony(as an example)--but Paul's own testimony:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--how do Lutherans collate the numerous witnesses of the Biblical text, confirming the connection of works--and His grace unto life--with their claim one obtains eternal life to the exclusion of all works--and the scriptures which they believe supports such a view?

IOW--Paul connects His Kingdom--with this:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

How do Lutherans collate the numerous witnesses in the Biblical text--connecting our actions with His grace unto life--as a personal reception--with the scriptures they feel does not support that witness?(1John1:7 might be another--and the long list goes on--but more on that later)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
There seems to be a tendency of those who debate the scriptures--whenever one scripture is posted--- to show a correlation, or non-correlation-- between one's theology, and the posted scripture--the interlocker then posts an opposing scripture.( I do it also).

For me--that not only does not make one's point, in and by itself--it renders the Biblical text a very unreliable source of truth.

One must have a way of collating the scriptures--or admit they are unreliable. (I believe the scriptures are reliable)

So--let's start here--with the above two scriptures.(and, BTW--I think it goes deeper than that--but let's start there)

When Paul uses the term "works"(Eph2 as an example)--that is often a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not a reference to walking in the light, keeping the commandments, or taking care of the poor.

IOW--some scholars have recognized the problem presented in throwing scriptures against one another, particularly Paul's words--and have come to this conclusion:

"New Perspective on Paul—


The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.

Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general. "


I believe that is a very good explanation--and one I have taken for some time--and offers one explanation as to how one can comport Paul with not only the 1John1:7 testimony(as an example)--but Paul's own testimony:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--how do Lutherans collate the numerous witnesses of the Biblical text, confirming the connection of works--and His grace unto life--with their claim one obtains eternal life to the exclusion of all works--and the scriptures which they believe supports such a view?

IOW--Paul connects His Kingdom--with this:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

How do Lutherans collate the numerous witnesses in the Biblical text--connecting our actions with His grace unto life--as a personal reception--with the scriptures they feel does not support that witness?(1John1:7 might be another--and the long list goes on--but more on that later)

The title should have read--"Comporting the Biblical witness"
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Why do I care what A New Perspective on Paul says? When I going by what the Bible says?

And don't you remember how I correlated your verses about walking in the light by quoting OTHER verses that say HOW we walk in the Light?

Jesus is the TRUE Light. When we believe in Him for salvation, and trust in HIM ALONE to be saved, we then "walk in Jesus" ergo, "walk in the Light."

Paul says in Colossians 1:

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have [d]for all the [e]saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you in [f]heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also IT IS constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

And remember this also?

From this, we can ascertain that the Colossians bore fruit IN their faith in Jesus, AFTER they heard and believed the Gospel message that Epahras had given them. The fruit they were bearing is part of "walking in the Light". Paul continues:

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 SO that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, [l]to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and [m]increasing in the [n]knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to [o]His glorious might, [p]for the attaining of all steadfastness and [q]patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us [r]to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

And remember what else Paul wrote in Col. 2? which I have posted a number of times on here?

6 Therefore AS you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so [e]walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established [f]in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing [g]with gratitude.
AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.

Why do you keep pretending I have not dealt with your quote about walking in the light and what it means many times on here and on the Mormonism board?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do I care what A New Perspective on Paul says? When I going by what the Bible says?
Because it's an explanation how one comports the scriptures you posted--- to the scriptures I posted.

So--what is your explanation of how you comport them together?

You do believe this is the truth?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you comport that to Lutheran theology? My explanation is found above.

And don't you remember how I correlated your verses about walking in the light by quoting OTHER verses that say HOW we walk in the Light?

The above verse connects walking in the light--with God's Blood--where do you find any qualifications of how?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies Lutheran theology. How are you claiming your point of "how"--collates it with Lutheran theology?

Just as the Savior connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Claiming that your questions of how that happens somehow magically collates that to Lutheran theology--is pure fantasy. Please explain to us how you collate those scriptures to Lutheran theology. How quoting "belief" scriptures make it fit? How claiming "faith" scriptures make it fit?

Bonnie--quoting belief and faith scriptures only connects keeping the commandments with belief and faith--as integral components.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And don't you remember how I correlated your verses about walking in the light by quoting OTHER verses that say HOW we walk in the Light?
Paul says in Colossians 1:

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have [d]for all the [e]saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you in [f]heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also IT IS constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.
Could you please take the time to explain for us how any of that collates the scripture which connects walking in the light, with the Blood of Jesus Christ--with Lutheran theology? That defies Lutheran theology--and there is nothing in Colossians1 which will cover the nakedness of Lutheran theology, when trying to comport the testimony of 1John1:7 to Lutheran theology. It violates Lutheran theology--end of story.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

The only way I can see they correlate(faith scriptures and walking in the light to receive the Blood)--is that walking in the light--and faith in Christ--are integral components to one another. And that "bearing fruit" and "walking in the light" are connected. That isn't friendly to your argument.

It does nothing to comport those who walk in the light, as the ones receiving of God's grace of His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--with Lutheran theology. They are on polar opposites of one another. Lutheran theology preaches one is saved unto Life-- independent of walking in the light--or any other works. All works are excluded in obtaining salvation--in Lutheran theology. It's a faith without works in obtaining salvation--in Lutheranism.

Care to engage that reality?

Now--about "bearing fruit":

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

My, My, Bonnie--you have your work cut out for you!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
From this, we can ascertain that the Colossians bore fruit IN their faith in Jesus, AFTER they heard and believed the Gospel message that Epahras had given them. The fruit they were bearing is part of "walking in the Light".
How are you using that argument to disconnect the bond between walking in the light--and the Blood of Christ--as it's applied to those who walk in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

If that's true--then Lutheran theology is false--regardless of the ordering of events you feel is present.

Paul continues:

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 SO that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, [l]to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and [m]increasing in the [n]knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to [o]His glorious might, [p]for the attaining of all steadfastness and [q]patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us [r]to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

So--"you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord"--is somehow a scripture which you believe comports Lutheran theology to 1John1:7? How so?

Bonnie--that's like taking poison and believing it will do damage to your opponent. It's just another thorn in the flesh for Lutherans to deal with. It does nothing to absolve Lutheran theology from the damaging effects of 1John1:7. It only digs the hole deeper. Opens the wound wider.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
6 Therefore AS you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so [e]walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established [f]in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing [g]with gratitude.
AS we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO we walk in Him. The reception of Jesus Christ as our Savior THEN enables us to "walk in the Light." ON ACCOUNT OF OUR FAITH IN HIM we are able to walk in Him.
How does your explanation of what enables us to walk in the light--somehow collate the connection of walking in the light to receiving God's Blood unto the forgiveness of sins---with Lutheran theology?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

You haven't explained that for us yet. Please do.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Because it's an explanation how one comports the scriptures you posted--- to the scriptures I posted.

So--what is your explanation of how you comport them together?

You do believe this is the truth?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you comport that to Lutheran theology? My explanation is found above.



The above verse connects walking in the light--with God's Blood--where do you find any qualifications of how?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That defies Lutheran theology. How are you claiming your point of "how"--collates it with Lutheran theology?

Just as the Savior connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Claiming that your questions of how that happens somehow magically collates that to Lutheran theology--is pure fantasy. Please explain to us how you collate those scriptures to Lutheran theology. How quoting "belief" scriptures make it fit? How claiming "faith" scriptures make it fit?

Bonnie--quoting belief and faith scriptures only connects keeping the commandments with belief and faith--as integral components.
It is just the author's opinion--isn't it?

Did the rich young ruler keep God's commandments perfectly? IF he had would he have had to follow Jesus? Have we not addressed these verses many times before on here? Why do you keep repeating yourself? Do you think you will change what we think about this?

Also, Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments on our own. He was showing the young man that he had not kept the commandments. Choosing his wealth over following Jesus PROVED that he had NOT kept them at all, breaking the first and greatest commandment.

If we were capable of keeping God's commandments on our own, Jesus would not have needed to suffer and die for us. And James says if we keep all of God's law, but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it. Putting us back at square one.

There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?
  • We can depend upon our OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is more sure? More dependable? OUR imperfect obedience or JESUS' PERFECT obedience, which is then credited to us as righteousness, by grace through faith in HIM?


Remember?

Do you not know what Jesus said in John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish, but have eternal life."?

What did Jesus say in this verse gives us eternal life? Obeying the commandments? OR something else? What did He actually SAY, dberrie?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did the rich young ruler keep God's commandments perfectly? IF he had would he have had to follow Jesus? Have we not addressed these verses many times before on here? Why do you keep repeating yourself? Do you think you will change what we think about this?
How does posting questions of keeping the commandments perfectly--or what Lutherans believe about it--somehow change His testimony connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life? Where does one find any requirement of keeping the commandments perfectly--without the first mistake? That defies the gospel message of repentance and grace--the forgiveness of sins, change, etc.

IMO--that just shows Lutherans wave their hand at the Biblical testimony--in lieu of a man made theology:

Matthew 15:9---King James Version
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Remember?

Do you not know what Jesus said in John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish, but have eternal life."?

What did Jesus say in this verse gives us eternal life? Obeying the commandments? OR something else? What did He actually SAY, dberrie?

It doesn't state what gives eternal life--it just testifies those who believe in Him will have eternal life.

So--what is your evidence these aren't the ones who believe in Him?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How does claiming "faith" or "belief" verses somehow circumvents the verses of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

What is your evidence what we do in keeping His commandments isn't integral to faith in Christ? Belief in Him?

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Also, Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments on our own. He was showing the young man that he had not kept the commandments.

Cite, please. Jesus never made any such statement in Matthew 19:16-19. In fact--Jesus ADDED an additional requirement.

Choosing his wealth over following Jesus PROVED that he had NOT kept them at all, breaking the first and greatest commandment.

And that excludes the connection between His testimony of keeping the commandments, with eternal life--how?

If we were capable of keeping God's commandments on our own, Jesus would not have needed to suffer and die for us.

Where do we find any requirement of keeping the commandments on our own?

I thought those who obeyed God--were given the Holy Ghost?

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--how does that preclude the connection between keeping the commandments with eternal life?

John 14:21-23---King James Version
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

And James says if we keep all of God's law, but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it. Putting us back at square one.

James 2:10---King James Version
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That's a reference to the Mosaic Law--without God's grace.

In the gospel of Christ--all have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven--the opportunity to change is always present with those who are willing to follow Christ--His grace is always with them. They are not alone.
 
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