Context: Romans 4

[Theo1689]

I keep posting "not by works" passages to the Mormons. Most of the time they simply ignore them. One particular poster summarily dismisses them as allegedly being "out of context". Of course, he never actually DEMONSTRATES they are "out of context", he only makes the bankrupt CLAIM.

It seem silly to start a thread on this, since I ALREADY created a thread about Rom. 4:6 specifically, and as to be expected, NO Mormon responded to it. But let's see if two of the verses I've posted, Rom. 4:5-6, are truly taken "out of context" or not:

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The issue is whether Abraham was justified by "works" or not. And Paul says that "works" are a cause for boasting, but God isn't impressed by such things. Now there seem to be some in the Mormon camp who wish to claim that Paul is simply saying the "Mosaic Law" was done away with, but there are some other secret "commandments of God" outside of the Law, which are "required" for salvation. Well, not only does the Scriptures NOT teach any such distinction, but ANY work (whether Mosaic Law or not) is grounds for "boasting" about what you did.

So this mention of "works" precludes ALL works of men, not just "Mosaic Law".

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Paul then notes that contrary to being justified by "works", Abraham was justified by faith ("Abraham believed God"), and he quotes Gen. 15:6 to support his claim.

So right away we already have, "not justified by works" (v. 2), and "justified by faith" (v. 3).
This doesn't leave any room for some combination of "works plus faith", or "faith plus works", otherwise he would have said something like, "not justified by works alone", or "not justified by works by themselves". No, instead he simply denies the works aspect.

And just in case anyone is unaware, "righteousness" is a synonym for "justification", as they both come from the same Greek term, "dikaiosunE".

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Paul then speaks of a "gift". He had just written that we "are justified by grace as a gift" in Rom. 3:24, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (we are saved by Christ's work, not our own). He is arguing that "works" cannot count, because when one works, one is owed for one's work, and so something given in exchange for work ("quid pro quo") cannot be a "gift", by definition. We are justified by faith, as a gift, not by our works, where wages are given instead of a gift. If we work a 40-hour week, our employer doesn't give us money as a "gift", the money is what he OWES us, because we worked.

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul is now highlighting his point... If one does NOT WORK, and has no works to his credit, but believes in Christ, he is justified. "his faith is counted as righteousness"

Further, Paul speaks of Christ as "him who justifies the ungodly".
I believe Joseph Smith denied this, and changed Scripture, but the text as written fits perfectly with the CONTEXT of the entire chapter.

Christ "justifies the ungodly".
He even writes in the next chapter that Christ died for us "while we were SINNERS" (Rom. 5:8).
God doesn't "justify the godly".
We don't have to become "godly" to be saved.
(That would be doing "good works").
Just like one does not need to clean the house before you hire a maid.

Christ doesn't "justify the godly" (because of any alleged "good works").
Christ actually "justifies the UNGODLY" (despite our bad works, our sins).

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

And again Paul reiterates that God counts righteousness "APART FROM WORKS".
I made an entire thread to discuss just this phrase, but no Mormon wants to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Rom. 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

We aren't saved by "doing good works".
We are saved because our "bad works" are forgiven.
We are saved because our "sins are covered".

8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

We are not blessed for "good works".
We are blessed because God doesn't count our bad works, our sins.



So exactly which part is allegedly "out of context"?

 

[brotherofJared]

I keep posting "not by works" passages to the Mormons. Most of the time they simply ignore them.

The reason is most likely because this topic is already being discussed in the "not by works" thread. Why do u feel u need to start a new one?

So this mention of "works" precludes ALL works of men, not just "Mosaic Law".

That is a baseless conclusion.

2), and "justified by faith" (v. 3).
This doesn't leave any room for some combination of "works plus faith", or "faith plus works", otherwise he would have said something like, "not justified by works alone", or "not justified by works by themselves". No, instead he simply denies the works aspect.

Now address the obvious contradiction of James' passage that explicitly say the opposite. That Abraham was justified by works and not by faith alone.

So exactly which part is allegedly "out of context"?

What is the work? U claim it's any work and that is not borne out by the context. Verse 9 spells it out. Circumcision.

In context verse 5 should read like this:
And to the one who does not get circumcised but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (without the necessity of getting circumcised) is counted as righteousness,

That's the context.

 

[Bonnie]

The reason is most likely because this topic is already being discussed in the "not by works" thread. Why do u feel u need to start a new one?


That is a baseless conclusion.


Now address the obvious contradiction of James' passage that explicitly say the opposite. That Abraham was justified by works and not by faith alone.


What is the work? U claim it's any work and that is not borne out by the context. Verse 9 spells it out. Circumcision.

In context verse 5 should read like this:
And to the one who does not get circumcised but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (without the necessity of getting circumcised) is counted as righteousness,

That's the context.

Mormons show that they do a very bad job of reading in context....But DO show us where the Greek in vs. 5 is "circumcised." And not "works."

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (biblehub.com)

Because remember, Paul wrote that no flesh will be justified by works of the Law...and that God saved us NOT on account of works we have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy...

So, right there, both works of the Law and good works are excluded from saving us...so, what works are there left to be saved by?

 

[Theo1689]

The reason is most likely because this topic is already being discussed in the "not by works" thread.

No, it's not.
I've brought up these passages in MANY threads, and no Mormon has EVER addressed them. They always run away to DIFFERENT verses.

Show me where ANY Mormon has addressed Rom. 4 in the "not by works" thread.
It has NEVER happened.

Why do u feel u need to start a new one?

To show that Mormons can't address Scripture.
To show your bankrupt claim of "out of context" is completely false.

Now address the obvious contradiction of James' passage that explicitly say the opposite. That Abraham was justified by works and not by faith alone.

Thank you for proving my point.
You just RAN AWAY from Rom. 4.
You want to talk about "James", and NOT about Romans 4.

To quote your buddy dberrie, when YOU pit Scripture against Scripture, you demonstrate that you consider Scripture unreliable. So when you show that you believe Scripture is unreliable, why should we care what you think James 2 teaches?

What is the work? U claim it's any work and that is not borne out by the context. Verse 9 spells it out. Circumcision.

Nope.
According to the CONTEXT, "work" includes anything you do that you can "boast" about.

In context verse 5 should read like this:
And to the one who does not get circumcised but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (without the necessity of getting circumcised) is counted as righteousness,

That's the context.

If you have to REWRITE the passage to argue about "context", that demonstrates that it s YOU who isn't interested in the (original) context.

 

[Bonnie]

I keep posting "not by works" passages to the Mormons. Most of the time they simply ignore them. One particular poster summarily dismisses them as allegedly being "out of context". Of course, he never actually DEMONSTRATES they are "out of context", he only makes the bankrupt CLAIM.

It seem silly to start a thread on this, since I ALREADY created a thread about Rom. 4:6 specifically, and as to be expected, NO Mormon responded to it. But let's see if two of the verses I've posted, Rom. 4:5-6, are truly taken "out of context" or not:

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The issue is whether Abraham was justified by "works" or not. And Paul says that "works" are a cause for boasting, but God isn't impressed by such things. Now there seem to be some in the Mormon camp who wish to claim that Paul is simply saying the "Mosaic Law" was done away with, but there are some other secret "commandments of God" outside of the Law, which are "required" for salvation. Well, not only does the Scriptures NOT teach any such distinction, but ANY work (whether Mosaic Law or not) is grounds for "boasting" about what you did.

So this mention of "works" precludes ALL works of men, not just "Mosaic Law".

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Paul then notes that contrary to being justified by "works", Abraham was justified by faith ("Abraham believed God"), and he quotes Gen. 15:6 to support his claim.

So right away we already have, "not justified by works" (v. 2), and "justified by faith" (v. 3).
This doesn't leave any room for some combination of "works plus faith", or "faith plus works", otherwise he would have said something like, "not justified by works alone", or "not justified by works by themselves". No, instead he simply denies the works aspect.

And just in case anyone is unaware, "righteousness" is a synonym for "justification", as they both come from the same Greek term, "dikaiosunE".

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Paul then speaks of a "gift". He had just written that we "are justified by grace as a gift" in Rom. 3:24, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (we are saved by Christ's work, not our own). He is arguing that "works" cannot count, because when one works, one is owed for one's work, and so something given in exchange for work ("quid pro quo") cannot be a "gift", by definition. We are justified by faith, as a gift, not by our works, where wages are given instead of a gift. If we work a 40-hour week, our employer doesn't give us money as a "gift", the money is what he OWES us, because we worked.

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul is now highlighting his point... If one does NOT WORK, and has no works to his credit, but believes in Christ, he is justified. "his faith is counted as righteousness"

Further, Paul speaks of Christ as "him who justifies the ungodly".
I believe Joseph Smith denied this, and changed Scripture, but the text as written fits perfectly with the CONTEXT of the entire chapter.

Christ "justifies the ungodly".
He even writes in the next chapter that Christ died for us "while we were SINNERS" (Rom. 5:8).
God doesn't "justify the godly".
We don't have to become "godly" to be saved.
(That would be doing "good works").
Just like one does not need to clean the house before you hire a maid.

Christ doesn't "justify the godly" (because of any alleged "good works").
Christ actually "justifies the UNGODLY" (despite our bad works, our sins).

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

And again Paul reiterates that God counts righteousness "APART FROM WORKS".
I made an entire thread to discuss just this phrase, but no Mormon wants to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Rom. 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

We aren't saved by "doing good works".
We are saved because our "bad works" are forgiven.
We are saved because our "sins are covered".

8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

We are not blessed for "good works".
We are blessed because God doesn't count our bad works, our sins.



So exactly which part is allegedly "out of context"?

Actually, Zerinus took a crack at your Romans 4:6 thread:

Rom. 4:6 | CARM Forums

 

[Redeemed]

Actually, Zerinus took a crack at your Romans 4:6 thread:

Rom. 4:6 | CARM Forums

I don't even have to follow the link to know that it had to end badly For Z. He obviously doesn't know debate club rule #1. "Never debate Theo, unless you are willing to look foolish."

But you know what they say..." live and learn."

 

[organgrinder]

No, it's not.
I've brought up these passages in MANY threads, and no Mormon has EVER addressed them. They always run away to DIFFERENT verses.

Show me where ANY Mormon has addressed Rom. 4 in the "not by works" thread.
It has NEVER happened.



To show that Mormons can't address Scripture.
To show your bankrupt claim of "out of context" is completely false.



Thank you for proving my point.
You just RAN AWAY from Rom. 4.
You want to talk about "James", and NOT about Romans 4.

To quote your buddy dberrie, when YOU pit Scripture against Scripture, you demonstrate that you consider Scripture unreliable. So when you show that you believe Scripture is unreliable, why should we care what you think James 2 teaches?



Nope.
According to the CONTEXT, "work" includes anything you do that you can "boast" about.



If you have to REWRITE the passage to argue about "context", that demonstrates that it s YOU who isn't interested in the (original) context.

And that is the problem dealing with Mormons like this. Confront them with biblical truth and they will either divert (to James 2) or rewrite the verse to what they think it should mean. Sounds a lot like Joseph Smith when he redid portions of the Bible to suit his personal purposes. Once again the Mormon here -- BOJ-- shows disdain for the written word of God to the point adding words not in the Greek.

I have yet to see a Mormon on CARM exegete any scripture. They are great on unsubstantiated opinions but not on careful reading or exegeting the word of God (Bible). The Bible is kryptonite to Mormons.

While the following scripture refers to Jesus, He is also called the Word of God so this equally applies:


For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(Hebrews 4:12 NKJV)

 

[Theo1689]

And that is the problem dealing with Mormons like this. Confront them with biblical truth and they will either divert (to James 2) or rewrite the verse to what they think it should mean.

And that's how cults like Mormonism get started.

1) Decide on a personal theology.
2) Look in the Bible for something that sounds supportive.
3) Camp out there.

Hey dberrie, do you want to talk about Eph. 2:8-9?
Sure! James 2!

No, I said Eph. 2:8-9!
I know... James 2!

Will, how about discussing Rom. 4:1-5?
No problem! James 2!

Rom. 3:10-20?
Let's do it! James 2!


That way Mormons can reject the vast majority of the Bible.

 

[Bonnie]

No, it's not.
I've brought up these passages in MANY threads, and no Mormon has EVER addressed them. They always run away to DIFFERENT verses.

Show me where ANY Mormon has addressed Rom. 4 in the "not by works" thread.
It has NEVER happened.



To show that Mormons can't address Scripture.
To show your bankrupt claim of "out of context" is completely false.



Thank you for proving my point.
You just RAN AWAY from Rom. 4.
You want to talk about "James", and NOT about Romans 4.

To quote your buddy dberrie, when YOU pit Scripture against Scripture, you demonstrate that you consider Scripture unreliable. So when you show that you believe Scripture is unreliable, why should we care what you think James 2 teaches?



Nope.
According to the CONTEXT, "work" includes anything you do that you can "boast" about.



If you have to REWRITE the passage to argue about "context", that demonstrates that it s YOU who isn't interested in the (original) context.

Look at the rewriting they did, to keep from giving me the simple, correct answer to my question about Luke 7:50, about what Jesus said actually saved the woman. One Mormon rewrote the verse to say "Your faith(which is works) has saved you." Eventually, he dropped that and just told me that it was her works that saved her...kept telling gme to read in context, but that does not change what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID. Since when is faith spelled w-o-r-k-s?

Another, instead of answering me, directed me to 1 Peter 3:21...since when is 1 Peter 3:21 the same as Luke 7:50?

Not only is the Bible cryptonite to Mormons, but so is salvation by faith in Christ Jesus our Lord...sad.

 

[Redeemed]

Look at the rewriting they did, to keep from giving me the simple, correct answer to my question about Luke 7:50, about what Jesus said actually saved the woman. One Mormon rewrote the verse to say "Your faith(which is works) has saved you." Eventually, he dropped that and just told me that it was her works that saved her...kept telling gme to read in context, but that does not change what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID. Since when is faith spelled w-o-r-k-s?

Another, instead of answering me, directed me to 1 Peter 3:21...since when is 1 Peter 3:21 the same as Luke 7:50?

Not only is the Bible cryptonite to Mormons, but so is salvation by faith in Christ Jesus our Lord...sad.

And on top of that and all the games they play they expect us to take them seriously. My...My... Imagine that.

 

[Redeemed]

And on top of that and all the games they play they expect us to take them seriously. My...My... Imagine that.

For instance:
Mormonism teaches that when this life is over and final judgment is meted out, all resurrected persons (except sons of perdition) will be sent to one of three degrees of glory or kingdoms of glory. These kingdoms are named (from the highest to the lowest) the celestial, terrestrial, and the telestial degrees of glory. Mormons are told that the beauty and glory of even the lowest, where “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:103) are sent, is far above and beyond human comprehension.

In light of the above they want to tell us their church doesn't limit their worthiness. It's rather exasperating dealing with someone so willfully blind.

 

[Bonnie]

And that is the problem dealing with Mormons like this. Confront them with biblical truth and they will either divert (to James 2) or rewrite the verse to what they think it should mean. Sounds a lot like Joseph Smith when he redid portions of the Bible to suit his personal purposes. Once again the Mormon here -- BOJ-- shows disdain for the written word of God to the point adding words not in the Greek.

I have yet to see a Mormon on CARM exegete any scripture. They are great on unsubstantiated opinions but not on careful reading or exegeting the word of God (Bible). The Bible is kryptonite to Mormons.

While the following scripture refers to Jesus, He is also called the Word of God so this equally applies:


For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(Hebrews 4:12 NKJV)

Don't forget the other talking point verses, like Matthew 19, and the one about walking in the light...anything to divert and keep from dealing with our questions a d Bible verses. Pete and repeat, as often as necessary.

 

[Bonnie]

I keep posting "not by works" passages to the Mormons. Most of the time they simply ignore them. One particular poster summarily dismisses them as allegedly being "out of context". Of course, he never actually DEMONSTRATES they are "out of context", he only makes the bankrupt CLAIM.

It seem silly to start a thread on this, since I ALREADY created a thread about Rom. 4:6 specifically, and as to be expected, NO Mormon responded to it. But let's see if two of the verses I've posted, Rom. 4:5-6, are truly taken "out of context" or not:

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The issue is whether Abraham was justified by "works" or not. And Paul says that "works" are a cause for boasting, but God isn't impressed by such things. Now there seem to be some in the Mormon camp who wish to claim that Paul is simply saying the "Mosaic Law" was done away with, but there are some other secret "commandments of God" outside of the Law, which are "required" for salvation. Well, not only does the Scriptures NOT teach any such distinction, but ANY work (whether Mosaic Law or not) is grounds for "boasting" about what you did.

So this mention of "works" precludes ALL works of men, not just "Mosaic Law".

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Paul then notes that contrary to being justified by "works", Abraham was justified by faith ("Abraham believed God"), and he quotes Gen. 15:6 to support his claim.

So right away we already have, "not justified by works" (v. 2), and "justified by faith" (v. 3).
This doesn't leave any room for some combination of "works plus faith", or "faith plus works", otherwise he would have said something like, "not justified by works alone", or "not justified by works by themselves". No, instead he simply denies the works aspect.

And just in case anyone is unaware, "righteousness" is a synonym for "justification", as they both come from the same Greek term, "dikaiosunE".

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Paul then speaks of a "gift". He had just written that we "are justified by grace as a gift" in Rom. 3:24, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (we are saved by Christ's work, not our own). He is arguing that "works" cannot count, because when one works, one is owed for one's work, and so something given in exchange for work ("quid pro quo") cannot be a "gift", by definition. We are justified by faith, as a gift, not by our works, where wages are given instead of a gift. If we work a 40-hour week, our employer doesn't give us money as a "gift", the money is what he OWES us, because we worked.

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul is now highlighting his point... If one does NOT WORK, and has no works to his credit, but believes in Christ, he is justified. "his faith is counted as righteousness"

Further, Paul speaks of Christ as "him who justifies the ungodly".
I believe Joseph Smith denied this, and changed Scripture, but the text as written fits perfectly with the CONTEXT of the entire chapter.

Christ "justifies the ungodly".
He even writes in the next chapter that Christ died for us "while we were SINNERS" (Rom. 5:8).
God doesn't "justify the godly".
We don't have to become "godly" to be saved.
(That would be doing "good works").
Just like one does not need to clean the house before you hire a maid.

Christ doesn't "justify the godly" (because of any alleged "good works").
Christ actually "justifies the UNGODLY" (despite our bad works, our sins).

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

And again Paul reiterates that God counts righteousness "APART FROM WORKS".
I made an entire thread to discuss just this phrase, but no Mormon wants to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Rom. 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

We aren't saved by "doing good works".
We are saved because our "bad works" are forgiven.
We are saved because our "sins are covered".

8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

We are not blessed for "good works".
We are blessed because God doesn't count our bad works, our sins.



So exactly which part is allegedly "out of context"?

Plus, the godly do NOT NEED to be justified...the UNgodly DO!