Continued discussion from the Atheism board...

Aaron32

Well-known member
Those two statements seem to contradict each other. To strive is to fail. To strive is to place one under the Old Covenant where one strived to keep the law whereas under the New Covenant, it is Grace through faith, and not of yourselves. God guarantees that those who he has foreordained as new creations in, with, and through the faith of his dear son by the power of his holy Spirit will systemically produce fruit unto righteousness as a consequence of their salvation, sanctification, etc. to the glory of God.
It requires one to stick with the system to have one systematically produce fruit unto righteousness. Our wills are not over-powered nor is every single act deemed righteous. We still have to choose to obey the Holy Spirit,
But let's not confuse this with salvational status. Yes. We do become new creations. We are justified based on our faith, and we have a remission of sins. When I talk about striving, I'm referring to sanctification.

Under the Old Covenant, one strived to keep the law by their own will and effort. Under the New Covenant, Christ carries the load for us, and his burden is light, his yoke easy.
Yes. The debt is paid simply on our acceptance of Him, and we serve out of love.
That's doesn't mean we have complete sanctification or a divine nature. We can look to the law as God's standard of righteousness, and realize where we need to "grow in grace," [2 Peter 3:18] and advance in the knowledge and love of God his Savior [see Philippians 1:9].
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
That can only be true under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant doesn't allow for one to fall short. Hebrews 8:9,10; 9:15; 10:26. See also Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:25-27
Hebrews 8:9,10 - 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What if someone denies they Holy Ghost? Will the law still be in their heart and mind?
If the mere acceptance of Christ automatically makes us do good, then why did Peter need to be prompted 3 times to feed His sheep?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

This is talking about justification, not sanctification.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

This is taking about willful rebellion and apostacy, not sin in general.

Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:25-27
The remainder of the scriptures, as I understand them, are promises as we continue in sanctification and endure to the end in faith.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It requires one to stick with the system to have one systematically produce fruit unto righteousness.
Only God can remove those branches that no longer produce fruit.
Our wills are not over-powered nor is every single act deemed righteous.
True, but then I'm not referring to you and your. I'm referring to those described in the bible who God creates for his new covenant.
We still have to choose to obey the Holy Spirit,
All who are under the first testament must make that choice.
Yes. We do become new creations. We are justified based on our faith,
Correction: The "faith OF Christ"
and we have a remission of sins. When I talk about striving, I'm referring to sanctification.
You're also referring to the first testament.
Yes. The debt is paid simply on our acceptance of Him, and we serve out of love.
That's doesn't mean we have complete sanctification or a divine nature.
Correct. That is reserved for those God endows with a heart to keep his commandments.
We can look to the law as God's standard of righteousness, and realize where we need to "grow in grace," [2 Peter 3:18] and advance in the knowledge and love of God his Savior [see Philippians 1:9].
No doubt about it, but again those who are given a heart to keep God's commandments cannot sin.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Hebrews 8:9,10 - 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What if someone denies they Holy Ghost? Will the law still be in their heart and mind?
Nope.
If the mere acceptance of Christ automatically makes us do good,
It doesn't. The mere acceptance is not equivalent to a brand new creation.
then why did Peter need to be prompted 3 times to feed His sheep?
Because he was still functioning under the Old Covenant.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

This is talking about justification, not sanctification.
So what? Look at the fact that only sins committed under the first testament are redeemed. That option doesn't exist under the new covenant.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

This is taking about willful rebellion and apostacy, not sin in general.
Your ignorance of the bible is profound. No one who sins willfully, intentionally, or knowingly can have their sin remedied with sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover intentional sin under either covenant. The remedy for intentional sin was never sacrifice.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:25-27
The remainder of the scriptures, as I understand them, are promises as we continue in sanctification and endure to the end in faith.
They both plainly point out that God will give them a new heart for one reason and one reason only; i.e. to keep his commandments. There is nothing about continuing to sin, nor are there any remedies for those who do.

So you have a choice. Either no one sins under the new covenant, hence the fact that there remains no more sacrifice for sin, or those who do sin are damned due to the fact that Christ is not the mediator of sinners under the new covenant. That's the first testament. The second testament is mediated by a king who rules with a rod of iron.

Which one sounds like the gospel to you?

For those who detest their sin, and wish for nothing more than to be liberated from sin forever, the prospect of a sinless life is truly good news. For those who are still consumed by sin, and have no idea how wretched they truly are, the prospect of being able to sin with impunity still looks far better to them than the prospect of living free from sin.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Only God can remove those branches that no longer produce fruit.
Agreed, but God wont cut off anything we're unwilling to forsake. Sin is still a choice.

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." (Romans 6:12)
"that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, (Ephesians 4:22)

Though the law is fulfilled in Christ, it is not destroyed. The law shows how holy God is. “You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy” (Lev. 11:45)
And by seeing the law, we recognize how sinful and broken we are (Rom. 3:20; 5:20; 7:7-8)

If God did all the work, despite our conscious effort, why would any apostle or scripture admonish us? We'd already be doing everything according to God's will.


"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;" (Colossians 2:11)
"Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry" (Colossians 3:5)

True, but then I'm not referring to you and your. I'm referring to those described in the bible who God creates for his new covenant.
That's a red herring. Let's just stick to the bible and use it to support our arguments.

All who are under the first testament must make that choice.
I disagree. The choice is for all men saved or unsaved. “None is righteous, no, not one;" (Romans 3:11)
"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to control his whole body." (James 3:2)
The freedom Christ promises is not freedom from the struggle with sin, but freedom from slavery to sin.
If we don't have sins of commission we have sins of omission. The gain the fulness of God's glory is a process to maturity:

"Make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11)

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Cor 13: 11-13)


Correction: The "faith OF Christ"
Yes, obviously.

You're also referring to the first testament.
Nope.
"For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me." (Colossians 1:29)
"Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus...I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12,14)
"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers" (1 Tim 4:10)
"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." (Heb 12:4-8)

Correct. That is reserved for those God endows with a heart to keep his commandments.
Agreed. But that heart is still in a body of earthly flesh.

No doubt about it, but again those who are given a heart to keep God's commandments cannot sin.
I agree that it's due to the heart that God gives us where we have no desire to sin. But I disagree a reborn person is wholly unable to sin.
We are not under the Mosaic Law, but we are still under the law of the Spirit. ( see Romans 8:2)

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. (Gal 5:16-17)

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”(1 John 1:8–9). Thus, this passage indicates that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” (Hebrews 12:7–8)
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Aaron32 said:
Hebrews 8:9,10 - 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What if someone denies they Holy Ghost? Will the law still be in their heart and mind?
Nope.
Agreed. But if that be true then how does "The New Covenant doesn't allow for one to fall short." (as you indicated in Post # 18) ?

It doesn't. The mere acceptance is not equivalent to a brand new creation.
Fair enough. What do you believe is required to become a "brand new creation"?

Because he was still functioning under the Old Covenant.
What is evidence that one accepts and operates under the new Covenant?
Many Christians I come in contact with refer to Romans 10:9. Peter clearly did that in Matt 16:16.
Peter refused to go back to the Old Covenant in John 6:68.

So what? Look at the fact that only sins committed under the first testament are redeemed. That option doesn't exist under the new covenant.
That may be your belief given your interpretation of the Bible.
In our church, we renew our baptismal covenants, therefore becoming redeemed, every time we partake of the sacrament.
Ergo, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them." (John 6:56)

Your ignorance of the bible is profound.
Ah, judgment. There's a sin. (Luke 6:37-38)

No one who sins willfully, intentionally, or knowingly can have their sin remedied with sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover intentional sin under either covenant. The remedy for intentional sin was never sacrifice.
Agreed. That's why humility and repentance is required. Of course, I'm mormon, so I may draw different conclusions than you.
Yet, I would say I know other Christians that agree with me. Here's a quote from Focus on the Family:

"Because of the sin nature that dwells within us, there’s a very real sense in which we often sin against our own wills (Romans 7). In other words, every sin is “willful sin.” If it weren’t, we wouldn’t be responsible; and if we’re not responsible for our own actions, sin can’t be sin at all. As James says, “Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:14-15, ESV).

So if every sin is willful sin, it doesn’t make sense to say that “willful sin” causes us to lose our salvation. What hope would there be for any of us?! No … the apostle John assures us of something quite different and encouraging:

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:7-9, ESV).

Again, it’s a day-by-day, moment-by-moment process." https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-qa/willful-sin-after-salvation-and-eternal-security/

They both plainly point out that God will give them a new heart for one reason and one reason only; i.e. to keep his commandments.
Yes. I partially agree with you - the purpose of a new heart is to net result in keeping the commandments. But the Pharisees outwardly obeyed the commandments, and Jesus condemned them. Thus, I'd add that fundamental purpose of giving a new heart was to love God, and because we love God, we keep his commandments. (John 14:15) And if we truly follow the first great commandment, the second great commandment comes naturally - loving our neighbor as ourselves, not judging or condemning them, but lovingly guiding them to truth.

There is nothing about continuing to sin, nor are there any remedies for those who do.
I've point to scriptures in my previous post that says otherwise, but I'm happy to see evidence to the contrary.

So you have a choice. Either no one sins under the new covenant, hence the fact that there remains no more sacrifice for sin, or those who do sin are damned due to the fact that Christ is not the mediator of sinners under the new covenant. That's the first testament. The second testament is mediated by a king who rules with a rod of iron.
That is quite profound. I think you're the first Christian that has pointed that out to me. That illustrates how the strict belief in "One God" bleeds into the debate of God’s sovereignty vs. human free will. Very Interesting.
Mormons don't have that false dilemma. We believe Christ will always be our mediator with the Father.

Which one sounds like the gospel to you?
Well, given the context we are in, me, a Mormon, and you, a Christian - I think the term "gospel" is a loaded term, and thereby the answer wouldn't get us anywhere.

I think a better question might be "What is a gospel that works?"
Do we pretend we don't sin, when we very well know that we do? That's illogical.
Do we change the definition of sin from the OT to the NT? That's impossible if God is unchanging.

So, I'd say the gospel that makes sense is the one I currently believe in.

For those who detest their sin, and wish for nothing more than to be liberated from sin forever, the prospect of a sinless life is truly good news.
Agreed. Yet, how could one detest they're sin if they weren't already being worked on by God?
Thus, upon the acceptance of Christ we are justified, but as we mature in Christ we become sanctified.

For those who are still consumed by sin, and have no idea how wretched they truly are, the prospect of being able to sin with impunity still looks far better to them than the prospect of living free from sin.
Well, that's true. Yet, I think the whole point of Jesus telling us to not judge others is the fact that none of us have an idea of how wretched we are, whether we've accepted Christ as our Savior or not.

To keep this post on the Mormonism board, might I recommend you read the logic of 2 Nephi 2 (particularly verses 5 through 16), and see if makes logical sense to you: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Agreed, but God wont cut off anything we're unwilling to forsake. Sin is still a choice.
For those who want to sin. They should not be confused with those who are a new creation.
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." (Romans 6:12)
"that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, (Ephesians 4:22)

Though the law is fulfilled in Christ, it is not destroyed.
Agreed. The key difference to note between the two covenants it that under the first, people transgress the law, and must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins while under the second, the law is kept, and Christ reigns over his kingdom with a rod of iron.
The law shows how holy God is. “You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy” (Lev. 11:45)
Yep, and God's holiness doesn't allow for sin.
And by seeing the law, we recognize how sinful and broken we are (Rom. 3:20; 5:20; 7:7-8)
Correct, and therefore it is only the new creature in Christ who can keep God's law.
If God did all the work, despite our conscious effort, why would any apostle or scripture admonish us?
They wouldn't.
We'd already be doing everything according to God's will.
True, but everyone is called in their own time according to God's divine will.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;" (Colossians 2:11)
"Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry" (Colossians 3:5)
You're making my points for me. Glad to see that you finally see the truth. Paul really can't make it much clearer than that.
That's a red herring.
No, it isn't.
Let's just stick to the bible and use it to support our arguments.
I did. I even supplied you with passages from scripture for your edification, e.g. Jeremiah 31:31-34;Ezekiel 11:19; 36:25-27; Hebrews 8:9,10, etc. etc. etc.
I disagree. The choice is for all men saved or unsaved.
Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, but I chose you" And who can forget, "No one comes to me unless the Father draw him"?
“None is righteous, no, not one;" (Romans 3:11)
Every sinner has a future. Every saint has a past.
"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to control his whole body." (James 3:2)
Very true!
The freedom Christ promises is not freedom from the struggle with sin, but freedom from slavery to sin.
Again, I couldn't have said it better myself. You've just conceded the argument.
If we don't have sins of commission we have sins of omission. The gain the fulness of God's glory is a process to maturity:
So true. You can take a cucumber and place it in brine. Take it out every day, and it's still basically a cucumber, but one day you will pull it out, and it is a pickle. It will always be pickled from that moment forward. The same is true for those who earnestly strive to keep God's commandments. Eventually, they're able to see the gravity of sin, and are repulsed by it. Even that isn't enough to prevent them from sin. The only sure fire guarantee is when the carnal man dies. The wages of sin is death, but the new creature in Christ cannot sin because there can be no sin in Christ. That is one point, you cannot deny or refute without contradicting yourself.
"Make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Very true! This is the methodology of the Old Covenant.
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,
Read that again. He explicitly states, "YOU WIILL NEVER STUMBLE".
"For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me." (Colossians 1:29)
And that mighty power cannot fail.
"Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus...I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12,14)
"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers" (1 Tim 4:10)
"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." (Heb 12:4-8)

All of that is right in line with what I've been posting.
I disagree a reborn person is wholly unable to sin.
I haven't forgotten your position. You needn't repeat yourself as this doesn't advance the discussion in the slightest.
We are not under the Mosaic Law, but we are still under the law of the Spirit. ( see Romans 8:2)
Anyone who sins is under the penalty of the law. There is one law for the Jew and gentile alike. God is not a respecter of persons.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Once again, a perfect summation of my position.
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”(1 John 1:8–9). Thus, this passage indicates that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin.
You're going to have to do better than that. Confessing sin is not equivalent to being spiritually begotten. If so, where does scripture make this claim?
Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times.
False. Paul explicitly enjoins that you do NOT quench the Spirit. He doesn't say it will happen to the elect anywhere.
But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.
Ongoing grace conforms the elect to the image of Christ. God's grace is does not grant one to sin with impunity. That's a counterfeit gospel.
“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” (Hebrews 12:7–8)
Again, yet another perfect example of my position. Those who are disciplined are true heirs to the kingdom. No one would confuse someone undisciplined with someone who exhibits discipline.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Agreed. But if that be true then how does "The New Covenant doesn't allow for one to fall short." (as you indicated in Post # 18) ?
You're describing the parameters of the Old Covenant which provides a mechanism to deal with sin. There is no point in coming up with a New Covenant when it is exactly like the Old. The New Covenant doesn't make any provision for sin. Again, Hebrews 9:15; 10:26 make this abundantly clear.
Fair enough. What do you believe is required to become a "brand new creation"?
The new creature in Christ does not have to work, or show themselves approved to become a new creation. It is exclusively according to God's grace, and his sovereign will and mercy. See Romans 9 for more.
What is evidence that one accepts and operates under the new Covenant?
The abundant systemic production of fruit.
Many Christians I come in contact with refer to Romans 10:9. Peter clearly did that in Matt 16:16.
Peter refused to go back to the Old Covenant in John 6:68.
You'll have to develop this idea a bit more
That may be your belief given your interpretation of the Bible.
It's directly from the text. The burden of proof is upon you to supply us with evidence to refute what the texts state.
In our church,
Special pleading. There is no room for private interpretations in the church.
Ah, judgment. There's a sin. (Luke 6:37-38)
You're the one who just passed judgement. I was simply making an observation.
Agreed. That's why humility and repentance is required. Of course, I'm mormon, so I may draw different conclusions than you.
Yet, I would say I know other Christians that agree with me. Here's a quote from Focus on the Family:

"Because of the sin nature that dwells within us, there’s a very real sense in which we often sin against our own wills (Romans 7). In other words, every sin is “willful sin.” If it weren’t, we wouldn’t be responsible;
This is completely unbiblical. The Mosaic law presents a fundamental division between intentional and unintentional sin; and nowhere does it ever suggest that those who sin unintentionally are not responsible. The remedy for intentional sin was NEVER sacrifice, but instead 'teshuva' or repentance and restitution.
and if we’re not responsible for our own actions, sin can’t be sin at all. As James says, “Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:14-15, ESV).

So if every sin is willful sin, it doesn’t make sense to say that “willful sin” causes us to lose our salvation.
Regardless of whether every sin is intentional or not, willful disobedience most certainly will cause one to lose their salvation. The only way that won't happen is if God has foreordained those who reject the gospel to be saved. In that case, they cannot resist God's mercy.
What hope would there be for any of us?!
Paul is clear that there is no hope for any and all of creation. It is only those who God shows mercy to that have any hope at all.
No … the apostle John assures us of something quite different and encouraging:

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
There is nothing in that statement that suggests he is allowing for anyone to continue in sin, or to sin with impunity.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Quite true, and yet beside the point. What follows proves my point.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:7-9, ESV).
Very true, and yet if you continue reading, you should see that John is careful to present a chronology of events which refutes your position. Those who are cleansed do not continue in sin. Note the tenses in later verses. He is elaborating on what you just posted, and clearly pointing out that sin is left in the past.
Yes. I partially agree with you - the purpose of a new heart is to net result in keeping the commandments. But the Pharisees outwardly obeyed the commandments, and Jesus condemned them.
You're missing the whole point. The new heart is the only way one can keep the commandments IN THEIR HEART. That's where it counts!
Thus, I'd add that fundamental purpose of giving a new heart was to love God, and because we love God, we keep his commandments. (John 14:15) And if we truly follow the first great commandment, the second great commandment comes naturally - loving our neighbor as ourselves, not judging or condemning them, but lovingly guiding them to truth.
Well said. Again, you're making my points for me.
I've point to scriptures in my previous post that says otherwise, but I'm happy to see evidence to the contrary.
I already presented it to you. You have yet to even address it, much less refute it.
That is quite profound. I think you're the first Christian that has pointed that out to me. That illustrates how the strict belief in "One God" bleeds into the debate of God’s sovereignty vs. human free will. Very Interesting.
I'm not following. Paul points out that the carnal man cannot please God. For Paul free will isn't the deciding factor in one's salvation. To truly have free will, one must have the choice to begin with. The carnal man has no choice, thus he has no true free will. Likewise, those who God chooses to reveal the kingdom to, have no choice but to accept it as only the damned can. It's what in modern parlance, we refer to as "a no-brainer". No one presented with the prospect of the kingdom can reject it as it is only given to those who God has chosen for salvation.

Continued below...
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Mormons don't have that false dilemma.
What false dilemma?
We believe Christ will always be our mediator with the Father.
Then you believe that you will always sin? My point is that Christ mediates sin through his sacrifice, but he also mediates righteousness through the power of his faith.
Well, given the context we are in, me, a Mormon, and you, a Christian
I'm not a Christian. Please try to focus on the content presented rather than on who is posting it. Ad Hominem only serve to propagate confusion.
- I think the term "gospel" is a loaded term, and thereby the answer wouldn't get us anywhere.
You're deflecting from the actual question. Call it whatever you please, which one would you pick? This isn't a trick question either. You've been caught, and you know it. So go ahead and take your pick. Which one sounds like the TRUTH????
I think a better question might be "What is a gospel that works?"
You're contradicting yourself now. First you say the term is loaded, and then you turn right around and use it anyways. Stop deflecting, and answer the question.
Do we pretend we don't sin, when we very well know that we do? That's illogical.
Agreed.
Do we change the definition of sin from the OT to the NT?
Nope.
That's impossible if God is unchanging.
Yep.
So, I'd say the gospel that makes sense is the one I currently believe in.
Which tells us absolutely nothing. Ignore my question, and I'll do you the same favor.
Agreed. Yet, how could one detest they're sin if they weren't already being worked on by God?
No doubt about it. It's all according to God's will.
Thus, upon the acceptance of Christ we are justified, but as we mature in Christ we become sanctified.
Whatever. The good shepherd picks up his lost sheep because the sheep is lost, and because IT'S HIS SHEEP. The good shepherd doesn't ask the cast and lost sheep if it's ready to accept him.
the whole point of Jesus telling us to not judge others is the fact that none of us have an idea of how wretched we are, whether we've accepted Christ as our Savior or not.
Ah, here's where you've really gone off the rails. No one can accept Christ unless or until God reveals how wretched they truly are. Otherwise the gift of repentance is as shallow as rain on a pane of glass. "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" God, and then only those to whom God grants the gift of repentance. God will not grant repentance to someone who just thinks that they're not perfect or some such nonsense. If you can't comprehend how disgusting and depraved your heart truly is, the gift of repentance is useless. You might as well use dynamite to kill a spider. It would be like building your house out of carbon fiber, or driving a lifted four wheel drive truck to get over a speed bump.
To keep this post on the Mormonism board, might I recommend you read the logic of 2 Nephi 2 (particularly verses 5 through 16), and see if makes logical sense to you: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng
I'll pass. There's no point in bothering when you can't be bothered to reply to the points I've already made.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
For those who want to sin. They should not be confused with those who are a new creation.

Agreed. The key difference to note between the two covenants it that under the first, people transgress the law, and must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins while under the second, the law is kept, and Christ reigns over his kingdom with a rod of iron.

Yep, and God's holiness doesn't allow for sin.

Correct, and therefore it is only the new creature in Christ who can keep God's law.

They wouldn't.

True, but everyone is called in their own time according to God's divine will.

You're making my points for me. Glad to see that you finally see the truth. Paul really can't make it much clearer than that.
It seems like we are in agreement on many things. I'm glad about that. I haven't changed my position or understanding, I just clarified it.
I'm commenting as I go, we'll see if this continues or not.

Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, but I chose you" And who can forget, "No one comes to me unless the Father draw him"?
FYI - My religion makes a clarification on being "called" and being "chosen".
We are "called" when we have desires to serve God. (D&C 4:3)
Men do not become "chosen" because they "undertake to cover [their] sins, or to gratify [their] pride, [their] vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness" (D&C 121:37) In other words, they can go through all the motions, but they don't seek to glorify God.
We recognize that though we "deny ourselves of all ungodliness" we ultimately realize that it is by his grace that we become perfected. (Moroni 10:32)
Some people want to debate God sovereignty vs free agency. Personally, at the end of the day, as long as God is properly reverenced, I don't really care HOW it happens. I'm just happy that it DOES happen.

Every sinner has a future. Every saint has a past.

Very true!

Again, I couldn't have said it better myself. You've just conceded the argument.
I don't believe I've conceded anything, nor am I here to necessarily win an argument. I rejoice in truth. As long as we're in agreement, I'm satisfied.

So true. You can take a cucumber and place it in brine. Take it out every day, and it's still basically a cucumber, but one day you will pull it out, and it is a pickle. It will always be pickled from that moment forward. The same is true for those who earnestly strive to keep God's commandments. Eventually, they're able to see the gravity of sin, and are repulsed by it. Even that isn't enough to prevent them from sin. The only sure fire guarantee is when the carnal man dies. The wages of sin is death, but the new creature in Christ cannot sin because there can be no sin in Christ. That is one point, you cannot deny or refute without contradicting yourself.

Very true! This is the methodology of the Old Covenant.

Read that again. He explicitly states, "YOU WIILL NEVER STUMBLE".
Aaron32 said:
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

I think we're in agreement. I just wanted to emphasize it does take effort on our parts, and the "if" implies a choice.

And that mighty power cannot fail.
And yet it's still striving.

All of that is right in line with what I've been posting.

I haven't forgotten your position. You needn't repeat yourself as this doesn't advance the discussion in the slightest.
Fair enough. Maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying.

Anyone who sins is under the penalty of the law. There is one law for the Jew and gentile alike. God is not a respecter of persons.
That's true now, but that wasn't the case while the Mosaic law was still in force.

Once again, a perfect summation of my position.
Ok! (y)

You're going to have to do better than that. Confessing sin is not equivalent to being spiritually begotten. If so, where does scripture make this claim?
Simply look in the next chapter 1 John 2:
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
The "children" are the ones who are "begotten" in Christ.
The statement says "if anybody does sin" is evidence that "we" (the children) have an advocate with the Father.
Verse 2 further distinguishes the two groups of "the children" and "the whole world".

Moreover, to be clear, in other verses in the Bible regarding "confessing", "forsaking" is a frequent companion. So, I'm not making the argument that "confession" alone is sufficient.

False. Paul explicitly enjoins that you do NOT quench the Spirit. He doesn't say it will happen to the elect anywhere.
Regardless, why would he give that admonishment if it wasn't a possibility?
I suppose I'm confused in your belief as to when a person becomes "elect". You agree with me when I said "The gain the fulness of God's glory is a process to maturity". Are you saying the "elect" go from sinfulness, to complete obedience?

Ongoing grace conforms the elect to the image of Christ. God's grace is does not grant one to sin with impunity. That's a counterfeit gospel.
Agreed.

Again, yet another perfect example of my position. Those who are disciplined are true heirs to the kingdom. No one would confuse someone undisciplined with someone who exhibits discipline.
Again, I'm glad we're in agreement.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It seems like we are in agreement on many things. I'm glad about that. I haven't changed my position or understanding, I just clarified it.
I think where most Christians go off the rails is in assuming that they must be already saved, and under the New Covenant. Once they've done this, they can't help but interpret all of scripture according to this assumption. This is why so many go off the rails when it comes to distinguishing between the two covenants.

Again, there is no effective difference between the two covenants if people continue to sin under the second one.

When God points out that he is going to make a new covenant with Israel and Judah whereby he will give them a new heart to keep his commandments, that's exactly what that means. It doesn't mean he's going to make a new covenant with any gentile nations, nor does it mean that this new heart is going to sin.

Sinners are not in the New Covenant. Christ mediates sin under the Old Covenant, not the New. Those who continue to sin, must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins. That has always been the case. As long as one is relying upon their will and effort, they are destined to fail. One must surrender their will and effort completely before they can accept the faith of Christ into their lives, or rather deny themselves completely before Christ manifests in their midst.

Think of it this way: You're driving down the highway, and let's just say that you drive with the flow of traffic because that's just what everyone else does. Then one day, you see the grill of a state trooper in your rear view mirror. Suddenly you slow down to whatever speed you're confident will prevent you from being pulled over and given a ticket. Let's just say that State trooper's grill stays in your rear view mirror indefinitely. You're not going to ever become lax about using your turn signal, or speeding, or maintaining a consistent position in the lane you're traveling in. You're going to be on your best behavior for as long as you possibly can. If for some reason, you become fatigued, you're immediately going to pull off into a rest area, or convenience store to rest.

When one becomes aware of the presence of God in their lives, it instantly becomes impossible to hide anywhere. No one can sin with any awareness of God's presence.

The Adam and Eve cycle in Genesis spotlights what is really going on. We're just like Adam in that we think we can hide from him. This is what allows us to sin. This is how we are able to justify sin in our lives. This is how we rationalize sin, and Jesus explicitly points out that this is 'an abomination" Luke 16:15

When the kingdom is discovered, no one is going to be able to resist making their way into it, and no one is going to have time to consider sinning, much less actually manifesting sin in their lives. Those who aren't there yet, need to keep that in mind, and stop assuming that they've already entered into the kingdom, or are somehow part of a covenant when they quite clearly are nowhere near it.

You mentioned a television program which if I'm not mistaken had Harold Camping as it's primary spokesman at one time. I could be wrong, but I think that's the group you were referencing. He said something that I found quite insightful years ago. He said that those who discover that they're not saved can only do one thing; beg for mercy unceasingly. That in and of itself won't save anyone, but it certainly does spotlight a better frame of mind than what most people have as they're normal waking reality.

it's a humbling ordeal to realize that there is no hope of living a sinless life, but that's nothing in comparison to the revulsion one has when the gravity of sin is seen for what it is. There are two ways in which this takes place. One way is when Satan takes over a person's psyche, and shows them what's in their heart. This can lead only to self destruction. When the Spirit reveals what is in your heart, it comes along with the gift of repentance which no one can do on their own. In other words, no one can generate repentance, and even if they could, it would be pointless without self revelation from God.

In both cases, the evil within the heart is revealed, and far too many professing Christians seem to think that they're saved when they've never seen anything more horrible than something on television. There is nothing more ghastly than the contents of the fallen human heart.
 
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