Contra Calvinism

armylngst

Well-known member
Sorry you are just adding to the text and trying to alter your theology to avoid the difficulty
Can you present the full aggregate of scripture, instead of cherry picking passage?

For instance, here is a way to better understand the terminology of regenerate. Consider that Jesus presented salvation and having the Holy Spirit as being born again. One just isn't born. People don't just go to the hospital and out comes a baby, and everyone is shocked and surprised. Consider that regeneration is conception, and salvation is being born, in spiritual terms. Obviously conception comes before birth, and regeneration comes before being born again. As even Nicodemus understood, we cannot conceive ourselves.

Why do you deny what Jesus teaches in John 6? He speaks of those drawn to Him by the Father, but He also speaks of those drawn to Him for other reasons. (Selfishness, curiosity, etc.) He clearly states that only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. That is, He says He won't lose A SINGLE ONE, and that He won't cast them out. So those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, and God won't cast them out. That basically covers ALL the bases. Why not take all of scripture into account?
 

fltom

Well-known member
I did not alter anything. You just don't like yhe fact your gotcha text actually got you. Good one
LOL

You were refuted by the text and you started asltering the text in an effort to save your erroneous theology


Calvinism - the unregenerate cannot receive the things of God

The bible - they received the word with joy
Can you present the full aggregate of scripture, instead of cherry picking passage?
Funny you should say that when you just ignored two passages

Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

showing regeneration to be the mechanism of salvation





For instance, here is a way to better understand the terminology of regenerate. Consider that Jesus presented salvation and having the Holy Spirit as being born again. One just isn't born. People don't just go to the hospital and out comes a baby, and everyone is shocked and surprised. Consider that regeneration is conception, and salvation is being born, in spiritual terms. Obviously conception comes before birth, and regeneration comes before being born again. As even Nicodemus understood, we cannot conceive ourselves.

Again why do you speak of the full aggregate of scripture when you appeal to human analogies.







Why do you deny what Jesus teaches in John 6? He speaks of those drawn to Him by the Father, but He also speaks of those drawn to Him for other reasons. (Selfishness, curiosity, etc.) He clearly states that only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. That is, He says He won't lose A SINGLE ONE, and that He won't cast them out. So those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, and God won't cast them out. That basically covers ALL the bases. Why not take all of scripture into account?
I don't

You assume God was drawing men unconditionally

but God was giving to Christ those that were his

John 17:6–8 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.


He did so by

John 6:45 (ESV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

those who believed the Father came to Christ

those who did not did not come
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
LOL

You were refuted by the text and you started asltering the text in an effort to save your erroneous theology


Calvinism - the unregenerate cannot receive the things of God

The bible - they received the word with joy

Funny you should say that when you just ignored two passages

Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

showing regeneration to be the mechanism of salvation







Again why do you speak of the full aggregate of scripture when you appeal to human analogies.








I don't

You assume God was drawing men unconditionally

but God was giving to Christ those that were his

John 17:6–8 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.


He did so by

John 6:45 (ESV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

those who believed the Father came to Christ

those who did not did not come
They can receive them they just don't understand them salvifically.

So in what way did they receive the word since they were not regenerated and fell away??

The Provisionist is tounge tied.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
How did they recieve word if not salvifically??
Deal with the conflict to your theology

Sorry but your theology states they cannot receive the things of God

It does not mention the word salvifically

It is not in the text of 1Cor 2

It is not what Matt Slick or JD Martin stated

It is not in the text of desiring God or Grace to you ministry articles

as I pointed out previously

I will not follow your attempts at diversion
 

armylngst

Well-known member
armylngst said:
For instance, here is a way to better understand the terminology of regenerate. Consider that Jesus presented salvation and having the Holy Spirit as being born again. One just isn't born. People don't just go to the hospital and out comes a baby, and everyone is shocked and surprised. Consider that regeneration is conception, and salvation is being born, in spiritual terms. Obviously conception comes before birth, and regeneration comes before being born again. As even Nicodemus understood, we cannot conceive ourselves.
fltom said:

Again why do you speak of the full aggregate of scripture when you appeal to human analogies.
I apologize. I forget that what Jesus was saying in John 3 was not actually scripture, but simply human analogy.

John 3 "3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who [e]believes will have eternal life in Him."

Please explain how Jesus is not using human birth (from conception to birth) to explain the spiritual truth of salvation. This I just gotta hear. Nicodemus used natural understanding to basically ask Jesus a question that said he wasn't quite understanding what Jesus said. Jesus did not leave the vein of His statement, but changed it to spiritual terms. He basically told Nicodemus that one has to be spiritually conceived and born again. No one is of their own power reentering the womb in Jesus explanation.
armylngst said:
Why do you deny what Jesus teaches in John 6? He speaks of those drawn to Him by the Father, but He also speaks of those drawn to Him for other reasons. (Selfishness, curiosity, etc.) He clearly states that only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. That is, He says He won't lose A SINGLE ONE, and that He won't cast them out. So those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, and God won't cast them out. That basically covers ALL the bases. Why not take all of scripture into account?
I don't

You assume God was drawing men unconditionally

but God was giving to Christ those that were his
And how did they become His? Ephesians 1. He unconditionally chose them before the foundation of the world to adoption as His children, who, as His children are held to the standard of living a life that is holy and unblemished.
John 17:6–8 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
This is not John 6. Deal with the passage in question before running rabbit trails. You don't even include the whole context of the passage you quoted which includes verse 20-21 "20 “I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me." and the verses that follow "22 The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [g]in unity, so that the world may [h]know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, [i]although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”"

That is aggregate scripture, not two or three cherry picked verses, without even dealing with the passage presented, which brings the cherry picked verses given into question.
He did so by

John 6:45 (ESV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

those who believed the Father came to Christ

those who did not did not come
Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father come to Christ. How can they hear if they are spiritually deaf? How can the learn if they are spiritually dead? Many came to Christ in John 6 who did not hear or learn from the Father. Jesus was explaining this to those (not of the original Jewish group that Jesus originally addressed, but others who had gathered to see Him for their own reasons) who were drawn to Him, but not by the Father but by things like curiosity, word of mouth, etc. They proved Jesus words by leaving at the end of John 6. Only the 12, only those who had heard and learned from the Father, as Jesus told them point blank at another time, remained.

In John 6, it was not only those who heard and learned from the Father who came, but others did. However, and I am repeating myself, they left, proving that they had not heard and learned from the Father. The were drawn to Christ for other reasons. Perhaps someone told them, you just have to go see this guy. He is incredible. He performs miracles. In fact, He raised this guy Lazarus from the dead. There are many reasons people were drawn to Christ. However, Jesus in John 6 is saying that being drawn by the Father is the only drawing that matters. Being drawn to Christ because one has been taught and learned from the Father, is the only drawing that leads to salvation.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

showing regeneration to be the mechanism of salvation
Lest I forget, even here you state that regeneration is not salvation, but a mechanism of salvation. You just undermined your whole argument.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Lest I forget, even here you state that regeneration is not salvation, but a mechanism of salvation. You just undermined your whole argument.
Not at all

Regeneration is how we are saved

when regeneration happens, salvation has occurred

Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
 

fltom

Well-known member
Fltom said:

Again why do you speak of the full aggregate of scripture when you appeal to human analogies.

Armylngst
I apologize. I forget that what Jesus was saying in John 3 was not actually scripture, but simply human analogy.

Sorry no Jesusc did not equate regeneration being born again with human birsth



John 3 "3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who [e]believes will have eternal life in Him."

Please explain how Jesus is not using human birth (from conception to birth) to explain the spiritual truth of salvation. This I just gotta hear. Nicodemus used natural understanding to basically ask Jesus a question that said he wasn't quite understanding what Jesus said. Jesus did not leave the vein of His statement, but changed it to spiritual terms. He basically told Nicodemus that one has to be spiritually conceived and born again. No one is of their own power reentering the womb in Jesus explanation.

Er As you started it was Nicodemis who spoke of re-entering his mothers womb and confounded human conception with spoiritual rebirth


armylngst said:
Why do you deny what Jesus teaches in John 6? He speaks of those drawn to Him by the Father, but He also speaks of those drawn to Him for other reasons. (Selfishness, curiosity, etc.) He clearly states that only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. That is, He says He won't lose A SINGLE ONE, and that He won't cast them out. So those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, and God won't cast them out. That basically covers ALL the bases. Why not take all of scripture into account?
fltom said:
I don't

You assume God was drawing men unconditionally

but God was giving to Christ those that were his
Armnylngst
And how did they become His? Ephesians 1. He unconditionally chose them before the foundation of the world to adoption as His children, who, as His children are held to the standard of living a life that is holy and unblemished.

Afraid not. God chose the faithful in Christ to be holy and blameless before him in love

He chose no one unconditionally

and the passage speaks of the blessing that are in Christ

Ephesians 1 (KJV 1900) — 1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

These are promises to those in Christ

one is placed in Christ when one believes

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

that happens in time not eternity

Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.








fltom said:
John 17:6–8 (ESV) — 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Armylngst
This is not John 6. Deal with the passage in question before running rabbit trails.

Are you afraid to know who Jesus states was given to him


fltom said:
He did so by

John 6:45 (ESV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

those who believed the Father came to Christ

those who did not, did not come
end pt1
 

fltom

Well-known member
pt2

Armylngst


Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father come to Christ. How can they hear if they are spiritually deaf?

Where does it state all who came to him were spiritually deaf

i am afraid you are reading your theology into the text

were these deaf

Matthew 13:20–22 (ESV) — 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

Why would God harden those born hardened, deaf, blind?

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

to prevent their believing

and why hide truth in parables if it cannot be understood

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

Your claim is inconsistent with scripture
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Not at all

Regeneration is how we are saved

when regeneration happens, salvation has occurred

Titus 3:5 (ESV) — 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV) — 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
You really do know how to twist the English language. So we aren't born again. Got it. You can't have both regeneration and born again, because they are not the same thing, and are not treated as the same thing in scripture. So which is it?

I just throw out the whole context of your butchered context "4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs [a]according to the hope of eternal life. "

Ephesians 2 "And [a]you [b]were dead [c]in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the [d]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the [e]sons of disobedience. 3 Among them [f]we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, [g]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [h]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [i]in our wrongdoings, made us alive together [j]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the [k]boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

So...it is God who made us alive. We did not make ourselves alive.
 

fltom

Well-known member
You really do know how to twist the English language. So we aren't born again. Got it. You can't have both regeneration and born again, because they are not the same thing, and are not treated as the same thing in scripture. So which is it?
Where did you get such a strange idea

regeneration is speaking of being born again





I just throw out the whole context of your butchered context "4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs [a]according to the hope of eternal life. "

Ephesians 2 "And [a]you [b]were dead [c]in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the [d]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the [e]sons of disobedience. 3 Among them [f]we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, [g]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [h]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [i]in our wrongdoings, made us alive together [j]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the [k]boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

So...it is God who made us alive. We did not make ourselves alive.
What is this confusion?

where did i ever state we make ourselves alive

God does do when we believe

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Armylngst
I apologize. I forget that what Jesus was saying in John 3 was not actually scripture, but simply human analogy.

Sorry no Jesusc did not equate regeneration being born again with human birsth
No one said he equated. Is slander a hobby, or just a way of life? If you can't even see the meaning of what I wrote, which I didn't actually hide, how can you expect to understand scripture and what Jesus said, when He actually was trying to hide it? I have not, and I have yet to see anyone here who has, stated that Jesus is equating salvation with human birth. Equating.. REALLY??? That's like saying that when He told parables, He was equating glorious spiritual truth with mundane human reality or analogy. That isn't how it works. Jesus was hiding spiritual truth in parables so that the people would not understand.
John 3 "3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who [e]believes will have eternal life in Him."

Please explain how Jesus is not using human birth (from conception to birth) to explain the spiritual truth of salvation. This I just gotta hear. Nicodemus used natural understanding to basically ask Jesus a question that said he wasn't quite understanding what Jesus said. Jesus did not leave the vein of His statement, but changed it to spiritual terms. He basically told Nicodemus that one has to be spiritually conceived and born again. No one is of their own power reentering the womb in Jesus explanation.

Er As you started it was Nicodemis who spoke of re-entering his mothers womb and confounded human conception with spoiritual rebirth
Jesus did tell Him not to be amazed that Jesus said that salvation is like (analogy) birth (in general). He then told Nicodemus that he is a leader of Israel, and asked how He could not understand what Jesus was saying. He got that Jesus was presenting salvation as birth of sorts (Paul does as well), but Nicodemus saw it as something that we do, that we make happen. Can we actually crawl back into the womb to be born again? No. Spiritual conception. We are talking, as Paul puts it, of a NEW CREATURE. Not an old creature with a layer of paint.
Armnylngst
And how did they become His? Ephesians 1. He unconditionally chose them before the foundation of the world to adoption as His children, who, as His children are held to the standard of living a life that is holy and unblemished.

Afraid not. God chose the faithful in Christ to be holy and blameless before him in love
I warn you again, do not step on God words and ignore context and the aggregate of scripture. You ignore the fact that verse 5 grammatically took place BEFORE verse 4. You can clearly see that the word HAVING is right there at the beginning of verse 5. Having done something, He did what is in verse 4. Having adopted us as His children, He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world to live Holy and blameless. The obvious question to ask is WHY did He choose us in Him, before the foundation of the world to live Holy and blameless? Because He predestinated us to adoption as His children. He set up a standard by which those adopted as His children are to live. Anyone else living in the world, He doesn't care what they do. However, those who have been foreordained to adoption, they are to live holy and blameless.
He chose no one unconditionally
So, your blatant admission that you believe in salvation by works. We have to meet some list of CONDITIONS that God has in order to be chosen. That is known as a list of merit. So merit based salvation, which is simply salvation by works. If this is actually not true, then by definition, God chose unconditionally. Once again, Ephesians 1 said God did it of the pleasure of His good will. (A flowery way of saying, He felt like it.)
and the passage speaks of the blessing that are in Christ

Ephesians 1 (KJV 1900) — 1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

These are promises to those in Christ

one is placed in Christ when one believes
So one must have believed before the foundation of the world right?
ans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
I forgot that God exists in time, and therefore doesn't exist at all. This is Paul speaking from the viewpoint of man. Of course they were believers before Paul was. However, in eternity, that is not how God views us. Ephesians 1 makes that clear. Paul is writing from the viewpoint of God, and I am glad that you told us that. "and the passage speaks of the blessing that are in Christ" (see your quote from above before you posted Ephesians 1.) So it is from the viewpoint of Christ and not man, in Ephesians 1. Hmmm. You told us this, yet you completely missed that point in explaining your eisogesis of Ephesians 1. (If it was exogesis, you would have noted that Paul is not writing from a human viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of God.)
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Where did you get such a strange idea

regeneration is speaking of being born again
Why not just use born again then? Why bring up regeneration at all? Is it because in order to be born again we have to be regenerated first? To be born there has to be conception first, as Jesus says in John 3 right? One must be born... of water and the spirit. Not just born, but of water and the spirit.
What is this confusion?

where did i ever state we make ourselves alive
So you do believe in irresistible grace. Now we are getting somewhere.
God does do when we believe
Jesus Himself said we cannot believe unless God acts. If I have to explain this again, I will just have understand that you do not believe the aggregate of scripture.
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Are you really two dimensional? "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Okay. Simple question. WHY are they not coming to Him? I expect to see you exercise the whole aggregate of scripture, because you yourself already gave the scripture that covers this. If you don't you will most certainly lose my respect completely. You use the verse in your arguments, so take your time before answering. Since you claim to know the aggregate of scripture, I won't give any hints more then what I just said.

You do know that when you stand back and look at the actors in life you have God, and then you have His playthings. That is, You have what He created. He can do whatever He wishes with what He has created. If you set boundaries, then you are setting yourself above God. You are claiming to actually know God, His motives, His beliefs, His heart, and His mind. We cannot. Consider the Old Testament. Someone who does not have a proper view of God will talk about a God who perpetrated genocide. Someone who has a proper view of God would say, so what? We are His creation. The fact that He stopped with one group of people instead of wiping out the whole planet, that's what's important. That's the unbelievable part. The fact that He chose a nation that wasn't even worthy of any notice at all, and used them, that is also unbelievable. Why didn't He just snap His fingers and be done with it? He set Himself to the course that we see. He doesn't spend His time violating the laws of the universe He created, but has chosen to work with them. He could have snapped His fingers and made Sodom and Gomorrah disappear, and leave Lot and family standing there wondering what happened to their home. He didn't. He worked within natural systems to bring about a cataclysm that destroyed the cities. He determined the destruction, but worked it out within the design of the world He created.

There seems to be so much that you ignore about who our God is. Somehow God is provisional instead of sovereign. There are so many verses that state that God will not give up anything that is His. So He didn't just bow His head and become provisional, where we have free will to be a sinner or righteous. In the system of the universe God created, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be righteous. We are sinners. It took God killing His Son on a cross to make it possible for those He chose to save to be saved. The cross is contrary to nature, which is why Paul tells us that the natural man sees it as folly. Why would someone just die for someone else? Why would anyone walk up to someone and say, "Let me throw my life away for you." The natural man cannot understand what the cross means. If they understood who Jesus is, and understood what He did, well, that would mean they were spiritual men and not natural men. Jesus showed the greatest love, which, by His own words, means He died for His friends. Who are His friends?
 

fltom

Well-known member
fltom said:
Where did you get such a strange idea

regeneration is speaking of being born again

Armylngst
Why not just use born again then? Why bring up regeneration at all? Is it because in order to be born again we have to be regenerated first? To be born there has to be conception first, as Jesus says in John 3 right? One must be born... of water and the spirit. Not just born, but of water and the spirit.



A. The Meaning of Regeneration
The word, used only twice in the New Testament (Matt. 19:28; Titus 3:5), means to be born again. To be born from above (anothen) occurs in John 3:3 and probably includes the idea of being born again also (see the use of anothen in Gal. 4:9). It is the work of God that gives new life to the one who believes.


Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1999), 376.



Regeneration

What does it mean to be born again?


EXPLANATION AND SCRIPTURAL BASIS

We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8).


Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 699.



REGENERATION AND SANCTIFICATION

1. What is the first work that the Spirit accomplished in those who are saved?
The work of Regeneration.

2. What is meant by our Regeneration?
Our being born again.


James Petigru Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), xiv–xv.


fltom said:
What is this confusion?

where did i ever state we make ourselves alive

Armylngst
So you do believe in irresistible grace. Now we are getting somewhere.

No you are getting nowhere

affirming we cannot make ourselves alive is not an affirmation of irresistible grace




fltom said:
God does do when we believe

Armylngst
Jesus Himself said we cannot believe unless God acts. If I have to explain this again, I will just have understand that you do not believe the aggregate of scripture.

quote the verse

you are in error in your intepretation and claim as well





fltom said:
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Armylngst
Are you really two dimensional? "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Okay. Simple question. WHY are they not coming to Him? I expect to see you exercise the whole aggregate of scripture, because you yourself already gave the scripture that covers this. If you don't you will most certainly lose my respect completely. You use the verse in your arguments, so take your time before answering. Since you claim to know the aggregate of scripture, I won't give any hints more then what I just said.

i do not need to take any time

Jesus stated because they did not believe God (they did not hear and learn from the Father) nor did they believe Moses,did not believe John the baptist, loved the praise of men more than God

Need more?

John 5:31–44 (ESV) — 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 8:39–47 (ESV) — 39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
 
G

guest1

Guest
Indeed and those that trust in the gospel are born again

1 Peter 1:22–25 (KJV 1900) — 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Amen contra Calvinism

oops
 
G

guest1

Guest
Deal with the conflict to your theology

Sorry but your theology states they cannot receive the things of God

It does not mention the word salvifically

It is not in the text of 1Cor 2

It is not what Matt Slick or JD Martin stated

It is not in the text of desiring God or Grace to you ministry articles

as I pointed out previously

I will not follow your attempts at diversion
Yes the diversion dam lol
 
G

guest1

Guest
He has been trying to add words to his theology so it will not come into conflict with the parable of the Sower

Calvinism - the unregenerate cannot receive the things of the Spirit

The bible - they received the word with joy
Yes I see that lol , it’s rather obvious the back peddling going on but that’s the nature of Calvinism with all its contradictions. It’s why I reject tulip .
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Yes I see that lol , it’s rather obvious the back peddling going on but that’s the nature of Calvinism with all its contradictions. It’s why I reject tulip .

ReformedGuy has already explained the correct interpretation, many times.
One of the problems is that you refuse to accept our answers, and want to keep making the same bogus claims, ad nauseam, even when we've already answered you.

You are free to disagree with our correct answers.
But repeating yourself ten million times simply wastes everyone's time, not to mention CARM resources.
 
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