Contradictions in the Scriptures unique to the LDS church

Bonnie

Super Member
Because that was my point. You're the one who said it was pointless. :rolleyes:

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Context is everything. It was because of her works that she received forgiveness. That's what saved her.

"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." Funny, i don't see "works" here at all....
All dealt with, but your critics keep running away. ;)
So, you dealt with all of the Bible verses Theo quoted that prove that there is only one God....? And you answered my question about how many true Gods are there...? Please show me where you did so....what about John 3:16, Romans 4....
So, this post is all about how you're not running away. Okay. :rolleyes:
Show me how I am running away when I am answering most of your posts, as time permits...

Now, what did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED THE WOMAN in Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH has SAVED YOU; go in peace." The exact word He used....

I am waiting....
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
I ran across this stuff on utlm.org while on shutdown, when I was doing research on Mormonism on various websites. It compares early "revelations" with later "revelations."

One of the ones that intrigue me the most is about paying church workers. On the last boards, we got into quite a discussion over paying or not paying pastors. The LDS church likes to brag that it has unpaid clergy. Well, its own D and C says church workers should be paid.




Supporting church workers/clergy is entirely biblical, both in the OT and the NT.
Is this the kind of stuff you're looking for?

To curse or not to curse... on one hand we have ye

… ye have brought before me [God] against them, ye [Joseph Smith] shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies. (February 1834, D&C 103:24–25)

But if he trespass against thee [Church members] the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee. (August 1833, D&C 98:44)

on the other hand we have nay

And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy; But behold I say unto you [Christ’s Church in the New World], love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.… (3 Nephi 12:43–44)

Wherefore, I say unto you [elders of the Church], that ye ought to forgive one another.… I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (September 1831, D&C 64:9–10)

That's a pretty big flip-flop right there. But I bet I can find more. That's the really sad part.

There shouldn't be any contradiction in teachings, if they are from God, for in 1 Corinthians 14:33 we learn that God is not the author of confusion. If there is confusion, then it seems reasonable to conclude that Mormon scriptures and teaching must not be from God.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Is this the kind of stuff you're looking for?

To curse or not to curse... on one hand we have ye

… ye have brought before me [God] against them, ye [Joseph Smith] shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies. (February 1834, D&C 103:24–25)

But if he trespass against thee [Church members] the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee. (August 1833, D&C 98:44)

on the other hand we have nay

And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy; But behold I say unto you [Christ’s Church in the New World], love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.… (3 Nephi 12:43–44)

Wherefore, I say unto you [elders of the Church], that ye ought to forgive one another.… I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (September 1831, D&C 64:9–10)

That's a pretty big flip-flop right there. But I bet I can find more. That's the really sad part.

There shouldn't be any contradiction in teachings, if they are from God, for in 1 Corinthians 14:33 we learn that God is not the author of confusion. If there is confusion, then it seems reasonable to conclude that Mormon scriptures and teaching must not be from God.
Yes, that is some of it. Rather....telling, isn't it?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Yes, that is some of it. Rather....telling, isn't it?
Rather... Telling is certainly putting it mildly and gently. I think it's The largest deception(Con job) ever pulled off. On my first day of studying Mormonism I did a fast flyby and I was amazed of how deep this stuff runs.

When they start going off to Mexico and Guatemala and Explain that's where it really took place not New York It starts getting way out there. And that whole American Indian thing being Israelites brought to America by an angel... you could get a brain blister just checking some of this stuff out. So this morning I decided to go back to the beginning when Joseph was 14 years old and take a look at his family and what they were about then move out from there and take a good look at the timeline and follow the history.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." Funny, i don't see "works" here at all....
That's because you choose not to see it.
So, you dealt with all of the Bible verses Theo quoted that prove that there is only one God....?
Yep.
And you answered my question about how many true Gods are there...?
Nope. I don't see where the question applies to anything we're talking about. how many true Gods are you aware of?
what about John 3:16, Romans 4....
What about them?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Show me how I am running away when I am answering most of your posts, as time permits...
You aren't answering my posts.
Now, what did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED THE WOMAN in Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH has SAVED YOU; go in peace." The exact word He used....

I am waiting....
Your works have saved you.

Bonnie, that's my answer. I've answered your question. I'm not like you. I don't read 4 or 5 words and only those words to the exclusion of all the rest of the words like you are doing. We know what the woman did to demonstrate her faith. Jesus specifically told her that it was because of her works that she obtained forgiveness of her sins. Identifying her actions as a sign of her faith, which Jesus did, was correct, but the word faith, here, is but a label for the works she performed. Therefore, the context is "your works have saved you, go in peace."

Not works of perfection or of perfectly following the 10 commandments nor of paying tithing or wearing special underwear. But instead, her works of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, a sacrifice of her pride - in essences she sold all that she had and gave it to the poor and then followed Jesus. That work, it is that work that saved her. That is the context, Bonnie. I'm sorry that you can't see it.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You aren't answering my posts.
Yes, I am, as I see them. I do have a life outside these boards, you know.
Your works have saved you.

Baloney! "For it is by GRACE YOU ARE SAVED; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

What part of "saved by grace through faith and not by works" do you NOT understand???
Bonnie, that's my answer. I've answered your question. I'm not like you. I don't read 4 or 5 words and only those words to the exclusion of all the rest of the words like you are doing. We know what the woman did to demonstrate her faith. Jesus specifically told her that it was because of her works that she obtained forgiveness of her sins. Identifying her actions as a sign of her faith, which Jesus did, was correct, but the word faith, here, is but a label for the works she performed. Therefore, the context is "your works have saved you, go in peace."
I am not asking you to focus on 4 or 5 words, but only ONE--What did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY saved the woman?

"Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."

And that is the end of the chapter, so nothing was taken out of context. Yes, the lady did do good deeds of love towards Jesus--but did Jesus say those works saved her? What did HE ACTUALLY SAY SAVED HER?

"Your Faith HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."
Not works of perfection or of perfectly following the 10 commandments nor of paying tithing or wearing special underwear. But instead, her works of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, a sacrifice of her pride - in essences she sold all that she had and gave it to the poor and then followed Jesus. That work, it is that work that saved her. That is the context, Bonnie. I'm sorry that you can't see it.
Why are you so afraid to give me a direct, correct answer? I can see the context just fine; I get that this lady did all of these loving things for Jesus--but I can also read what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID SAVED the woman:

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

What did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED HER? Why are you so...reluctant to give me a direct, CORRECT answer? What actual word did Jesus use?
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Baloney! "For it is by GRACE YOU ARE SAVED; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast."

What part of "saved by grace through faith and not by works" do you NOT understand???
What part of "through faith" don't you understand?

Bonnie, in every instance of faith, we always see works. You yourself pretty much agreed (you'll probably disagree that you agreed and I'm okay with that, as soon as you can show an instance from the scriptures where there is an example of faith without works).

As I stated in another thread, faith, in its simplest terms, is hope. Hope is useless if we don't act on it. A drowning person might have hope to be saved and should someone throw that person a life ring. His hope is useless if he doesn't reach for that life ring. That is what faith is without works. It is hope without action which is why faith without works is dead which is why grace is only obtainable through works that exhibit our faith in connection to Christ.

But you don't understand that. I've spelled this out in detail from Eph 2:10, that being born of Christ results in good works. If one is not walking in the light of good works, then one cannot claim being born of Christ. And, mind you, I'm not talking about extraordinary works, I'm talking about simple things, like seeking forgiveness for sins and striving to restore good faith with those we've harmed. Like being a peacemaker. Like being meek. And these are just a few. But they are the works of a disciple who believes in Christ.

Discussing these things with you all seems to be a hopeless endeavor. The vitriol we find here prevents our critics from seeing the obvious truth, even though the reality is that they believe it also. They know a person who does evil works, even though he claims he believes in Christ, cannot be saved. They know unrepentant murderer, adulterer, thief, covetous person cannot be saved because they are not born of Christ. They know this, but for the sake of their animus, they will not admit it.

Some come close, however; but they insist, again for no reason at all, that we believe the WoW, magic underwear, temple worship are all points that are required for salvation. They equate that to the works that we must do and it is false. It is a lie they have drummed up to fuel their animus. The fact is, most people who will enter into life in God's kingdom being like him, will have never done any of these things. This is a fact and yet, they continue to spin their web of darkness because it suites their agenda, win at all costs, even at the cost of being wrong. They don't care as long as they can continue the facade that they aren't wrong.

The fact is, the works that Paul is referring to is spelled out in Eph 2:11. One does not have to go far to find it. It is the works of the Law and is specifically contrasted against good works. Works is obviously necessary, some work is because if works were not necessary, then everyone would be saved. But we know that not everyone is saved. The question is, what is the difference between a saved person and a person who isn't saved. No matter how you look at it, it comes down to works. Deny it all you want, change the meaning of the word works, but it still boils down to being about something that we did differently than those who don't receive the promises.

Works are the efforts one makes to take hold of the promises we hope for. The promises we hope for is called faith. They are unseen but we have the assurance that they are true. Without works, faith is as non-existent as is the hope of a drowning man who refuses to reach for the hope he has in being saved.

That's the part you all understand but refuse to acquiesce to because of your stubborn willful blindness.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Sorry. That's exactly what you're doing.

No fear. I gave you the correct answer. Why do you refuse to see it?
No, you did not give me the correct answer at all, but tap danced all around it, to keep from GIVING ME THE CORRECT ANSWER. The question I asked isn't an essay question. Jesus added nothing to what He told the woman saved her. I do not deny that the woman's faith led her to weep for her sins, wash Jesus' feet with her tears, etc., out of love for Him for forgiving her sins. But--what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED THE WOMAN?

"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

What did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY saved her? Why are you so afraid to answer correctly? Is the question that scary?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No, you did not give me the correct answer at all, but tap danced all around it, to keep from GIVING ME THE CORRECT ANSWER. The question I asked isn't an essay question. Jesus added nothing to what He told the woman saved her. I do not deny that the woman's faith led her to weep for her sins, wash Jesus' feet with her tears, etc., out of love for Him for forgiving her sins. But--what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED THE WOMAN?

"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

What did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY saved her? Why are you so afraid to answer correctly? Is the question that scary?

So--let's expand that question to include these testimonies:

1 Peter 3:20-21--King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Bonnie--what does it say saves one there? Is the question that scary? Why are you so afraid to answer it?

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Who does it say saves? Are you afraid to answer that? Why is it so scary to you?

1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Who does it say saves there?

1 Corinthians 7:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Who saves there? Specifically--who?

1 Timothy 2:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

How does Paul testify women are saved there? Are you afraid to answer? Why is that so scary to you? Please answer it.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." Funny, i don't see "works" here at all....

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Funny--I don't see the first word there as "faith"...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." Funny, i don't see "works" here at all....
1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Funny--I don't see the first word there as "faith"...

1) Why are you "pitting Scripture against Scripture?

2) And why do you throw a hissy-fit when you think WE'RE doing it, but apparently it's okay when YOU do it?
Double standards much?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, you did not give me the correct answer at all,
It's the correct answer within the context of the scriptures.
The question I asked isn't an essay question. Jesus added nothing to what He told the woman saved her. I do not deny that the woman's faith led her to weep for her sins, wash Jesus' feet with her tears, etc., out of love for Him for forgiving her sins. But--what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED THE WOMAN?
Thank you for that essay. The answer to your question is her works which were born out of her faith. Cha-ching!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It's the correct answer within the context of the scriptures.

Thank you for that essay. The answer to your question is her works which were born out of her faith. Cha-ching!
I agree that the woman's works were born out of her faith. But that still does not answer my simple question: What did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED THE WOMAN?

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

I don't see where Jesus actually said "your works which were born out of you faith has saved you." Do you?

"Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."

Try again, boJ.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Different context than Luke 7:50, isn't it? This "saved" refers to how the water upheld the ark, thus supporting it, so the 8 inside were physically saved--right?
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Preaching to the choir here dberrie, as we believe in my church that baptism does indeed save us, as it is pure grace from God in Christ Jesus, though it is not absolutely necessary for salvation, if one is unable to be baptized after coming to faith--but that is for another board, isn't it? I will not discuss baptism here; that is for the board that is about baptism, isn't it?
Funny--I don't see the first word there as "faith"...
How about here:

"For it is by grace your are saved; through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD, and NOT by works, so no one may boast."

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have eternal life."

And of course, here:

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

you would know all of this if you took the entire Biblical account into consideration--wouldn't you, dberrie?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Different context than Luke 7:50, isn't it?

Just the claim that's needed to save one's point!!!

No, Bonnie--it isn't a different context.

This "saved" refers to how the water upheld the ark, thus supporting it, so the 8 inside were physically saved--right?

The "saved" was to water baptism here--as it relates to "us"--

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Preaching to the choir here dberrie, as we believe in my church that baptism does indeed save us,

Then faith alone theology is false--as it excludes any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in being saved.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Just the claim that's needed to save one's point!!!

No, Bonnie--it isn't a different context.



The "saved" was to water baptism here--as it relates to "us"--

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Then faith alone theology is false--as it excludes any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in being saved.
Baptism isn't a work we do--it is entirely all God's doing, working through water in the word...remember? We perform the rite, but it is God Who effects the forgiveness of sins and cleansing of His church through washing of water WITH the word, as per Ephesians 5:25-26--remember? Which makes it pure grace, doesn't it?

But where does 1 Peter 3:20-21 say that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for salvation, that a person is damned if he is not baptized, even if he truly believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? What about what Paul told the Philippian jailer, when he asked 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And Paul answered "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your whole household"? What if someone comes to believe in Him just prior to death and dies before he could be baptized? Will God withhold heaven from such a person? Did Jesus withhold it from the thief on the cross? What about Cornelius and his family and friends? Were they NOT saved AFTER they believed in Peter's message and the HS came so mightily to them, enabling them to speak in tongues and praise God, but prior to baptism in water? Wasn't that baptism by the Holy Spirit? So, where they UNsaved after this happened but BEFORE they had been baptized in water?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Does everyone see the blatant contradiction?
Of course you do...
Not sure what you are saying here, Theo. I am just pointing out that baptism isn't a work we must do, to be saved (that Mormons think it is, that MUST be done or they cannot be saved), but that forgiveness of sins through holy baptism is all God's doing, by the washing of water with the word of God. It is entirely the work of God, since He alone forgives sins. But baptism has its own board and I don't want to stray too far off Mormonism here.
 
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