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docphin5

Active member
An ordained Christian minister who transcends and rises far above the evils of Christianity
My neighbor, Mr. Rogers
Good speech and bold to ask everyone in the audience to take time to recognize someone who influenced their lives for good.
 

treeplanter

Active member
Good speech and bold to ask everyone in the audience to take time to recognize someone who influenced their lives for good.
Fred Rogers put others first - a man who truly loved his neighbor as he loved himself!

Unfortunately, Jesus Christ tells us that this is of only secondary importance
According to Jesus Christ, the first and greatest commandment is to love God

God puts Himself first and demands that He be recognized and praised and worshiped and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation
 

docphin5

Active member
Fred Rogers put others first - a man who truly loved his neighbor as he loved himself!

Unfortunately, Jesus Christ tells us that this is of only secondary importance
According to Jesus Christ, the first and greatest commandment is to love God

God puts Himself first and demands that He be recognized and praised and worshiped and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation
Wow, you pivot from a "Christian who transcends" to the negative so fast that I think I got whiplash from it. You couldn't just say Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be, and take a breath before impugning his Savior?

By the way, Jesus said that his God and Father judges no one. So if you are going to accuse someone of something, at least get your facts straight. Otherwise, you just sound like a rant against your straw man.

(John 5:22). For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,..."
 

treeplanter

Active member
Wow, you pivot from a "Christian who transcends" to the negative so fast that I think I got whiplash from it. You couldn't just say Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be, and take a breath before impugning his Savior?

By the way, Jesus said that his God and Father judges no one. So if you are going to accuse someone of something, at least get your facts straight. Otherwise, you just sound like a rant against your straw man.

(John 5:22). For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,..."
Fred Rogers put his neighbor first
Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be

What a Christian should be, per Jesus Christ, Himself, is one who loves God with all his heart and soul and mind
Remember, THIS is the first and greatest command - to put God first, not neighbor


Surely, you cannot possibly be suggesting that God does not judge us - regardless of what John 5:22 says

Remember, too, that God, the Father and God, The Son are ONE IN THE SAME
As the one judges, so, too, does the other

I have my facts straight {at least, the 'facts' as presented in scripture and throughout Christian teaching}


The "Negative" IS NOT me pointing out that putting neighbor first is insufficient to attain salvation
Nor is the "Negative" me pointing out that the sole basis on which salvation is granted is by putting God first

The "Negative" IS that putting neighbor first is insufficient to attain salvation
The "Negative" IS that the sole basis on which salvation is granted is by putting God first

In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!
 

docphin5

Active member
Fred Rogers put his neighbor first
Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be
Last I checked Christians are humans too.

What a Christian should be, per Jesus Christ, Himself, is one who loves God with all his heart and soul and mind
Remember, THIS is the first and greatest command - to put God first, not neighbor
It is not EITHER love God or love your neighbor. You are trying to mischaracterize what Jesus said.

Surely, you cannot possibly be suggesting that God does not judge us - regardless of what John 5:22 says
Jesus said that God judges no one. I cannot help it that most of Christianity ignores what he said. If you are going to criticize Jesus for something then at least criticize what he says, and not the opposite of what he says.

Remember, too, that God, the Father and God, The Son are ONE IN THE SAME
As the one judges, so, too, does the other

So now you are teaching theology, so you can rant against it. Sounds like a straw-man argument.
I have my facts straight {at least, the 'facts' as presented in scripture and throughout Christian teaching}
Scripture is not the work of a single person or organization. It is a compilation of at least 66 books written by over 35 authors from different cultures/nations over a period of about 3,000 years. There is no "scripture" that teaches one clear message, otherwise, there wouldn't be so many different takes on it.

The prudent thing for someone who neither believes that there is a God nor understands what "scripture' means would be to focus your criticisms on specific problems/concerns that you have with certain teachings. To just say that God is evil because he judges everyone is both inaccurate (per Jesus own statement) and meaningless, because humans have found justice and judgment to be a good thing for maintaining the peace.

The "Negative" IS NOT me pointing out that putting neighbor first is insufficient to attain salvation
Nor is the "Negative" me pointing out that the sole basis on which salvation is granted is by putting God first

The "Negative" IS that putting neighbor first is insufficient to attain salvation
The "Negative" IS that the sole basis on which salvation is granted is by putting God first
You are rambling.
In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!
Human systems of government judge people too, so are you going to rant against the Dept. of Justice too. Your generalizations are irrational and meaningless. It is clearly a rant.
 

treeplanter

Active member
Last I checked Christians are humans too.


It is not EITHER love God or love your neighbor. You are trying to mischaracterize what Jesus said.


Jesus said that God judges no one. I cannot help it that most of Christianity ignores what he said. If you are going to criticize Jesus for something then at least criticize what he says, and not the opposite of what he says.



So now you are teaching theology, so you can rant against it. Sounds like a straw-man argument.

Scripture is not the work of a single person or organization. It is a compilation of at least 66 books written by over 35 authors from different cultures/nations over a period of about 3,000 years. There is no "scripture" that teaches one clear message, otherwise, there wouldn't be so many different takes on it.

The prudent thing for someone who neither believes that there is a God nor understands what "scripture' means would be to focus your criticisms on specific problems/concerns that you have with certain teachings. To just say that God is evil because he judges everyone is both inaccurate (per Jesus own statement) and meaningless, because humans have found justice and judgment to be a good thing for maintaining the peace.


You are rambling.

Human systems of government judge people too, so are you going to rant against the Dept. of Justice too. Your generalizations are irrational and meaningless. It is clearly a rant.
1. Yes, Christians are human beings - where did I say or intimate otherwise?
You suggested that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be
I am suggesting that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a human being should be
You disagree?

2. I am not suggesting that a Christian cannot love neighbor because Christ said that loving God is the first and greatest command
It is you who is mischaracterizing me, Doc!
I am criticizing Jesus for what He said - He said that the FIRST and GREATEST command is to love God
The first and greatest command should be to love neighbor - not God

3. Great, Jesus said that God judges no one and many Christians ignore John 5:22
What you are ignoring, however, is that Genesis 18:25 refers to YHVH as "Judge of all the earth"
The bible is chockful of contradiction, haven't you noticed?

4. YHVH/God and Jesus Christ are ONE IN THE SAME
You choose to criticize me for knowing what your theology teaches?
Look, Doc - you're the one asserting that God doesn't judge on the basis of what Jesus said in John 5:22
Now you begrudge me taking the opportunity to point out that, per YOUR theology, what the one says - so, too, does the other?

5. Indeed, scripture is the work of many men over many years - what makes you think I don't know this?
Indeed, there are many different 'takes' on Christianity, however, there are certain core teachings common to all takes
God, The Father, and God, The Son, being one in the same is one such teaching common to all 'takes'
That love for God, rather than neighbor, is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment is another
I am specifically criticizing the teaching that love for God is of primary importance
This is selfishness on God's part

Where in the world did I say that God is evil because He judges us???
Here, again, you are mischaracterizing me!!!
I have never claimed that it is evil to judge
Hell, I judge people all the time and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever

6. Rambling?
I don't think so, Doc
You suggested that I am being negative
I am simply seeking to explain that there is nothing negative in pointing out the negative that God imposes upon us
Specifically, what negative you wonder?
That He cares more about Himself and His own selfish needs than He does about us

7. Again, where do you get this asinine idea that I am being critical of judgement itself?
I generally have found you to be a pleasant and conscientious poster, but you have completely misunderstood what I am saying
I suggest that you reread the exchange
 
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docphin5

Active member
1. Yes, Christians are human beings - where did I say or intimate otherwise?
When you said, "Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be" (Post #6)

You suggested that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a Christian should be
I am suggesting that Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a human being should be
You disagree?

2. I am not suggesting that a Christian cannot love neighbor because Christ said that loving God is the first and greatest command
It is you who is mischaracterizing me, Doc!
I am criticizing Jesus for what He said - He said that the FIRST and GREATEST command is to love God
The first and greatest command should be to love neighbor - not God
You are criticizing Jesus for saying to love God, who Jesus also says is the only one truly Good. Do you even hear yourself?

3. Great, Jesus said that God judges no one and many Christians ignore John 5:22
What you are ignoring, however, is that Genesis 18:25 refers to YHVH as "Judge of all the earth"
The bible is chockful of contradiction, haven't you noticed?
It depends. If Jesus says that his Father judges no one, but instead has given all judgment to the Son, then it is pretty clear that Jesus thinks YHWH Elohim is associated with the Son. Consequently, your gripe should be with YHWH rather than with Jesus and his God who alone is Good. Which is why I said your generalizations about God are inaccurate and meaningless.

4. YHVH/God and Jesus Christ are ONE IN THE SAME
You choose to criticize me for knowing what your theology teaches?
Look, Doc - you're the one asserting that God doesn't judge on the basis of what Jesus said in John 5:22
Now you begrudge me taking the opportunity to point out that, per YOUR theology, what the one says - so, too, does the other?
see above

5. Indeed, scripture is the work of many men over many years - what makes you think I don't know this?
Indeed, there are many different 'takes' on Christianity, however, there are certain core teachings common to all takes
God, The Father, and God, The Son, being one in the same is one such teaching common to all 'takes'
That love for God, rather than neighbor, is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment is another
I am specifically criticizing the teaching that love for God is of primary importance
This is selfishness on God's part
Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing? Do you think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them? Seriously.

Where in the world did I say that God is evil because He judges us???
When you said, "In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)

Here, again, you are mischaracterizing me!!!
I have never claimed that it is evil to judge
Hell, I judge people all the time and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever

6. Rambling?
I don't think so, Doc
You suggested that I am being negative
I am simply seeking to explain that there is nothing negative in pointing out the negative that God imposes upon us
Specifically, what negative you wonder?
That He cares more about Himself and His own selfish needs than He does about us
God has no needs so how can he be selfish. If you think it's wrong to love the source of life who alone is Good, per Jesus, then you and I have a different appreciation for life.

7. Again, where do you get this asinine idea that I am being critical of judgement itself?
When you said, ""In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)

I generally have found you to be a pleasant and conscientious poster, but you have completely misunderstood what I am saying
I suggest that you reread the exchange
I am reading your post which contains inaccurate generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgment. It is also a shame that you took a feel good story about Mr. Rogers who you admit was a Christian minister and turned it into a soapbox to rant against Jesus Christ and his God, for what? For Jesus honoring the only Good One who gave us life and judges no one.
 

treeplanter

Active member
When you said, "Fred Rogers is the epitome of what a HUMAN BEING should be, not what a Christian should be" (Post #6)


You are criticizing Jesus for saying to love God, who Jesus also says is the only one truly Good. Do you even hear yourself?


It depends. If Jesus says that his Father judges no one, but instead has given all judgment to the Son, then it is pretty clear that Jesus thinks YHWH Elohim is associated with the Son. Consequently, your gripe should be with YHWH rather than with Jesus and his God who alone is Good. Which is why I said your generalizations about God are inaccurate and meaningless.


see above


Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing? Do you think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them? Seriously.


When you said, "In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)


God has no needs so how can he be selfish. If you think it's wrong to love the source of life who alone is Good, per Jesus, then you and I have a different appreciation for life.


When you said, ""In short, the "Negative" here is God and His judgement!" (post #6)


I am reading your post which contains inaccurate generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgment. It is also a shame that you took a feel good story about Mr. Rogers who you admit was a Christian minister and turned it into a soapbox to rant against Jesus Christ and his God, for what? For Jesus honoring the only Good One who gave us life and judges no one.
You're not making sense - how is an assertion that Fred Rogers is something that we should all {not just Christians} aspire to be - the same thing, in your mind, as an assertion that Christians are not human beings?

I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that loving God {i.e. Himself} is more important than loving our neighbor
I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that the most important thing is to love God {i.e. Himself}
This is NOT the same thing as criticizing Jesus for saying to love God!
NOR is it the same thing as suggesting that a Christian cannot love his neighbor!

You have some strange beliefs
In a world of strange beliefs {Christianity} - you stand out apart from the rest
Jesus is some sort of intermediary between 'good god' Elohim and 'bad god' YHVH?
Bizarre...

Mainstream Christianity and the vast, overwhelming majority of the world's Christians are of one mind wherein God exists as a single entity comprised of three coeternal and consubstantial persons - separate and yet the same, Father and Son and Holy Ghost

Consequently, my gripe with YHVH IS my gripe with Christ and my gripe with Christ IS my gripe with YHVH

"Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing?"
It's not!
"Do {I} think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them?"
No, of course not!

What is selfish is decreeing that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
What is selfish is demanding to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation

What is selfish is sending a good person {somebody who lived a good life like Mr. Rogers} to Hell because he/she didn't know and love God

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity decreed that loving Him is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment - more important than a decree to love our neighbors

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity demands to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation - there is no salvation apart from coming to Jesus Christ

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity burns and tortures good and decent human beings who lived good and decent lives of service to others {just like Mr. Rogers} and all because they didn't know Him and love Him in their lifetimes

Not only is God and His judgement a 'negative' - God and His judgement is flat out evil
However, this is NOT the same thing as asserting that judgement itself is a negative or evil thing - as you have erroneously attributed to me

God {or anyone else for that matter} passing judgement is NOT negative and evil
The particular judgement{s} that God has made/passed is what is negative and evil

God has no needs?

Then why, according to scripture and mainstream Christianity, does He demand to be loved, praised, worshiped, and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation?

Sounds pretty needy to me...

No, I do NOT think that it's wrong to love the source of life!
I never, ever said that I do - where do you get these strange notions about me?

What I said is that it is evil for God to decree that man loving Him is more important than man loving neighbor
What I said is that it is evil for God to demand to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation
What I said is that it is evil for God to burn and torture good people for the 'crime' of not having loved Him

My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are NOT inaccurate
To the contrary, my generalizations accurately reflect God, Jesus, and judgement as depicted in scripture
My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are in accord with the generalizations as held by mainstream Christianity

Your generalizations, on the other hand, seem to be of a decidedly unusual and oddball brand of Christianity - if, indeed, it can even be called that
 
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docphin5

Active member
You're not making sense - how is an assertion that Fred Rogers is something that we should all {not just Christians} aspire to be - the same thing, in your mind, as an assertion that Christians are not human beings?

I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that loving God {i.e. Himself} is more important than loving our neighbor
I am criticizing Jesus Christ for saying that the most important thing is to love God {i.e. Himself}
This is NOT the same thing as criticizing Jesus for saying to love God!
NOR is it the same thing as suggesting that a Christian cannot love his neighbor!
Already addressed in previous posts. Unlike some on here I don't go round and round until we fall down from dizziness.

You have some strange beliefs
In a world of strange beliefs {Christianity} - you stand out apart from the rest
Jesus is some sort of intermediary between 'good god' Elohim and 'bad god' YHVH?
Bizarre...

Mainstream Christianity and the vast, overwhelming majority of the world's Christians are of one mind wherein God exists as a single entity comprised of three coeternal and consubstantial persons - separate and yet the same, Father and Son and Holy Ghost
You say my beliefs are strange because they stand out from Christian orthodoxy or mainstream Christianity. Thank you. That is a complement. Remember, THOSE people you compare me too still deny the facts of our world, for example, evolution. They still believe myths/superstitions as historical events. Need I say more?

For the record, the New Testament teaches in a "true God and Father" "who alone is Good". In the Old Testament he is El. El is a monad, a single thing. But El is manifest in creation as many gods or Elohim. Elohim is plural for El. YHWH and Ruach are members of the Elohim, as are we, but the archetypes for good and bad in the Old Testament/New Testament are Good: Ruach Elohim/Jesus and Bad: YHWH Elohim/Adversary, respectively.

So you are criticizing things that you don't understand. you also contradict yourself at times, for example, saying Mr. Rogers is a good, ordained, Christian minister but Christianity is evil. Maybe in some convoluted way that makes sense to you but it doesn't on its face. Either way I don't care arguing about it.

Consequently, my gripe with YHVH IS my gripe with Christ and my gripe with Christ IS my gripe with YHVH

"Since when did loving something that gave you life become a selfish thing?"
It's not!
"Do {I} think parents are selfish for wanting their children to love them?"
No, of course not!
If there is nothing wrong for loving parents because they brought you into this world then there is nothing wrong for loving the source of your existence. That is all Jesus is saying, yet you have twisted it into something deserving of condemnation.

What is selfish is decreeing that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
What is selfish is demanding to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation
You got it backwards (to no fault of your own, I blame Christian orthodoxy's twisting of scripture). The true God of Jesus sent Jesus to give life because the universe was already lifeless and damned before we came along. Rather than the glass being half-empty, the glass is actually half-full. This is our opportunity to experience and know the Good One who is the source of existence. If we are misled to make baseless rants against him rather than using our God-given intelligence to seek him out, then whose fault is it if that person never finds him, --never ascends beyond a material existence: jealousy, wrath, impatience, error, slavery, envy, and so on, being the works of the flesh (matter) alone.

What is selfish is sending a good person {somebody who lived a good life like Mr. Rogers} to Hell because he/she didn't know and love God
Who said God sent Mr. Rogers to hell? You? For the record, we are already in hell but that is another OP.

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity decreed that loving Him is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment - more important than a decree to love our neighbors
Besides trying to divide the commands which is never in the text, you fail to recognize that Jesus said God (Jesus' God, namely, El) alone is good. Assuming he is right then what is wrong with loving Good? Another apostle says that God is love. What is wrong with devoting oneself to love?

Do you see? There is another way at looking at this whereas your tunnel vision is leading you down a dead end path. You will spend so much time attacking what you don't know that you will miss out on something so much better.

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity demands to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation - there is no salvation apart from coming to Jesus Christ
The actual name of Yeshua means salvation in Aramaic. If you have salvation then you have Yeshua, and visa versa. And Paul describes the inner Christ as virtues: love, patience, good, truth, freedom, etc. Therefore, to be virtuous is to be on the path of salvation or Yeshua. On the other hand, people who ruled by error, wrath, envy, jealousy, don't have salvation so they cannot be saved.

I don't know who or what it is that you worship, but the God of Christianity burns and tortures good and decent human beings who lived good and decent lives of service to others {just like Mr. Rogers} and all because they didn't know Him and love Him in their lifetimes
If eternal torment is a punishment then I refuse to serve any God who allows it because by any standard it would be torture. Usually, when eternal torment is mentioned it is in the context of allegory and figurative language or parable so the literal meaning is suspect. IMO, extinction is the better meaning for those who choose bad, which in a way, is eternal torment, because they miss out on the eternal life provided those who choose what is most excellent.

Not only is God and His judgement a 'negative' - God and His judgement is flat out evil
However, this is NOT the same thing as asserting that judgement itself is a negative or evil thing - as you have erroneously attributed to me

As long as you continue to make generalizations about judgment then you open yourself to criticism and I will continue to point that out. If you are specific about what you don't like based on reason, for example, eternal torture, then I will back you up. If humans can reasons what a humane punishment would be then God should be able to do better.

God {or anyone else for that matter} passing judgement is NOT negative and evil
The particular judgement{s} that God has made/passed is what is negative and evil

God has no needs?

Then why, according to scripture and mainstream Christianity, does He demand to be loved, praised, worshiped, and glorified at the threat of eternal damnation?
Maybe because he knows that bad is incompatible with life, so he refuses to allow bad to exist eternally. In that case, he actually would be allowing eternal torment to those who suffered from the bad. No, this time is temporary, for a reason, for us to choose the good and so become like him, and he consequently cannot refuse himself. The material world will change but he will revive us who are like him at the right time, when the world is compatible for eternal life.

Sounds pretty needy to me...
Like any good parent, he wants the best for us while recognizing our independence.

No, I do NOT think that it's wrong to love the source of life!
I never, ever said that I do - where do you get these strange notions about me?

What I said is that it is evil for God to decree that man loving Him is more important than man loving neighbor
What I said is that it is evil for God to demand to be loved at the threat of eternal damnation
What I said is that it is evil for God to burn and torture good people for the 'crime' of not having loved Him

My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are NOT inaccurate
To the contrary, my generalizations accurately reflect God, Jesus, and judgement as depicted in scripture
My generalizations about God, Jesus, and judgement are in accord with the generalizations as held by mainstream Christianity

Your generalizations, on the other hand, seem to be of a decidedly unusual and oddball brand of Christianity - if, indeed, it can even be called that
 
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treeplanter

Active member
Already addressed in previous posts. Unlike some on here I don't go round and round until we fall down from dizziness.


You say my beliefs are strange because they stand out from Christian orthodoxy or mainstream Christianity. Thank you. That is a complement. Remember, THOSE people you compare me too still deny the facts of our world, for example, evolution. They still believe myths/superstitions as historical events. Need I say more?

For the record, the New Testament teaches in a "true God and Father" "who alone is Good". In the Old Testament he is El. El is a monad, a single thing. But El is manifest in creation as many gods or Elohim. Elohim is plural for El. YHWH and Ruach are members of the Elohim, as are we, but the archetypes for good and bad in the Old Testament/New Testament are Good: Ruach Elohim/Jesus and Bad: YHWH Elohim/Adversary, respectively.

So you are criticizing things that you don't understand. you also contradict yourself at times, for example, saying Mr. Rogers is a good, ordained, Christian minister but Christianity is evil. Maybe in some convoluted way that makes sense to you but it doesn't on its face. Either way I don't care arguing about it.


If there is nothing wrong for loving parents because they brought you into this world then there is nothing wrong for loving the source of your existence. That is all Jesus is saying, yet you have twisted it into something deserving of condemnation.


You got it backwards (to no fault of your own, I blame Christian orthodoxy's twisting of scripture). The true God of Jesus sent Jesus to give life because the universe was already lifeless and damned before we came along. Rather than the glass being half-empty, the glass is actually half-full. This is our opportunity to experience and know the Good One who is the source of existence. If we are misled to make baseless rants against him rather than using our God-given intelligence to seek him out, then whose fault is it if that person never finds him, --never ascends beyond a material existence: jealousy, wrath, impatience, error, slavery, envy, and so on, being the works of the flesh (matter) alone.


Who said God sent Mr. Rogers to hell? You? For the record, we are already in hell but that is another OP.


Besides trying to divide the commands which is never in the text, you fail to recognize that Jesus said God (Jesus' God, namely, El) alone is good. Assuming he is right then what is wrong with loving Good? Another apostle says that God is love. What is wrong with devoting oneself to love?

Do you see? There is another way at looking at this whereas your tunnel vision is leading you down a dead end path. You will spend so much time attacking what you don't know that you will miss out on something so much better.


The actual name of Yeshua means salvation in Aramaic. If you have salvation then you have Yeshua, and visa versa. And Paul describes the inner Christ as virtues: love, patience, good, truth, freedom, etc. Therefore, to be virtuous is to be on the path of salvation or Yeshua. On the other hand, people who ruled by error, wrath, envy, jealousy, don't have salvation so they cannot be saved.


If eternal torment is a punishment then I refuse to serve any God who allows it because by any standard it would be torture. Usually, when eternal torment is mentioned it is in the context of allegory and figurative language or parable so the literal meaning is suspect. IMO, extinction is the better meaning for those who choose bad, which in a way, is eternal torment, because they miss out on the eternal life provided those who choose what is most excellent.



As long as you continue to make generalizations about judgment then you open yourself to criticism and I will continue to point that out. If you are specific about what you don't like based on reason, for example, eternal torture, then I will back you up. If humans can reasons what a humane punishment would be then God should be able to do better.


Maybe because he knows that bad is incompatible with life, so he refuses to allow bad to exist eternally. In that case, he actually would be allowing eternal torment to those who suffered from the bad. No, this time is temporary, for a reason, for us to choose the good and so become like him, and he consequently cannot refuse himself. The material world will change but he will revive us who are like him at the right time, when the world is compatible for eternal life.


Like any good parent, he wants the best for us while recognizing our independence.
Nor do I care to go round and round, Doc!
What I do care about, though, is clearing my name
You suggested that I was criticizing Jesus for saying to love God
That is not true - what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
You suggested that I was claiming that a Christian cannot love neighbor because he/she loves God
Also, not true - Christians can and do love their neighbors

I agree with you - there is nothing wrong with loving the source of existence
What IS deserving of condemnation is a command to love that source at the threat of eternal damnation
What IS deserving of condemnation is to say that it is more important to love the source than it is to love each other
I haven't twisted anything, Doc - this is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches!

Nobody I know of claims that God sent Mr. Rogers to Hell -LEAST OF ALL ME!
Once again, you are misunderstanding me, Doc
What I said is that it is selfish to send a person to Hell for the 'crime' of not accepting Jesus
This is what God does - according to fundamentalist Christianity - He sends people to Hell for not believing
Even when these people lived good lives {lives dedicated to the service of others - lives just like the one Mr. Rogers lived}

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

This is what scripture says, Doc - this is not in dispute
FIRST and GREATEST is to love God
If loving God is FIRST, then by definition, to love neighbor is of SECONDARY importance
If loving God is GREATEST, then by definition, to love neighbor is GREAT, but not as great as loving God

That said, it's not me who "divides the commands" - it's the fundamentalist Christians who divide the commands!
It's the fundamentalist Christians who cling to the idea that loving God is of the most absolute paramount importance
It's the fundamentalist Christians who insist that God, Himself, insists that loving Him be the absolute most important thing
After all, loving God is the one and only basis on which God determines the eternal dispensation of our souls - per Christians
Accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Heaven regardless of your moral character
Fail to accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Hell regardless of your moral character
This is what fundamentalist Christians believe
It is them - the fundamentalist Christians - that I am addressing in this thread

As far as judgement goes:
You suggested that I was claiming that judgement, itself, is negative or evil
I said no such thing!
Nor do I see where I have made any "generalizations' about judgement, Doc
I believe I have been quite clear about the specific judgements of God that I consider negative and evil
1. That loving God is of greater importance than loving our fellow man
2. That loving God is the sole basis on which He will determine to grant salvation
3. That failure to love God {regardless of upstanding moral character, even one as good as Mr. Rogers} will result in eternal torture
This is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches
And again, it is the fundamentalist Christians that I am addressing

I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me - can't say that I really grasp it as of yet
I'll read through a couple more times

I think we share many of the same contentions where fundamentalist Christianity is concerned and, again, the points that I have been trying to make on this thread are relative to the fundamentalist Christian position - not the one that you hold
 

John t

Active member
Good speech and bold to ask everyone in the audience to take time to recognize someone who influenced their lives for good.
The same can be said of Billy Graham, and he led millions to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

Mr. Rogers cannot claim that sort of legacy that Billy Graham has.
 

John t

Active member
That is not true - what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
Quite the statement of atheistic hubris! The Son of the Living God is somehow beholden to your ideas about what He should have done while on earth?

Matthew 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

What Jesus is doing is summarizing the "two tablets of the Law" given by Moses in the Decalogue Love God. Love humans. Therefore, you are really objecting to the ENTIRE Decalogue. So which ones of them are you willing to trash because it does not fit into your "atheist theology" (cough, cough)?
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Please demonstrate to me where I was incorrect in that direct quote

You were incorrect when you characterized

what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor

As

The Son of the Living God is somehow beholden to your ideas about what He should have done while on earth?

Seriously, if you can't be bothered to understand what people say to you, don't expect them to treat you any better. You're the second self-righteous Christian we've had here, this week, who needed to be reminded about how to behave.
 

docphin5

Active member
Nor do I care to go round and round, Doc!
What I do care about, though, is clearing my name
You suggested that I was criticizing Jesus for saying to love God
That is not true - what I am criticizing is Jesus saying that it is more important to love God than it is to love neighbor
You suggested that I was claiming that a Christian cannot love neighbor because he/she loves God
Also, not true - Christians can and do love their neighbors

I agree with you - there is nothing wrong with loving the source of existence
What IS deserving of condemnation is a command to love that source at the threat of eternal damnation
What IS deserving of condemnation is to say that it is more important to love the source than it is to love each other
I haven't twisted anything, Doc - this is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches!

Nobody I know of claims that God sent Mr. Rogers to Hell -LEAST OF ALL ME!
Once again, you are misunderstanding me, Doc
What I said is that it is selfish to send a person to Hell for the 'crime' of not accepting Jesus
This is what God does - according to fundamentalist Christianity - He sends people to Hell for not believing
Even when these people lived good lives {lives dedicated to the service of others - lives just like the one Mr. Rogers lived}

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

This is what scripture says, Doc - this is not in dispute
FIRST and GREATEST is to love God
If loving God is FIRST, then by definition, to love neighbor is of SECONDARY importance
If loving God is GREATEST, then by definition, to love neighbor is GREAT, but not as great as loving God

That said, it's not me who "divides the commands" - it's the fundamentalist Christians who divide the commands!
It's the fundamentalist Christians who cling to the idea that loving God is of the most absolute paramount importance
It's the fundamentalist Christians who insist that God, Himself, insists that loving Him be the absolute most important thing
After all, loving God is the one and only basis on which God determines the eternal dispensation of our souls - per Christians
Accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Heaven regardless of your moral character
Fail to accept Jesus Christ and you will go to Hell regardless of your moral character
This is what fundamentalist Christians believe
It is them - the fundamentalist Christians - that I am addressing in this thread

As far as judgement goes:
You suggested that I was claiming that judgement, itself, is negative or evil
I said no such thing!
Nor do I see where I have made any "generalizations' about judgement, Doc
I believe I have been quite clear about the specific judgements of God that I consider negative and evil
1. That loving God is of greater importance than loving our fellow man
2. That loving God is the sole basis on which He will determine to grant salvation
3. That failure to love God {regardless of upstanding moral character, even one as good as Mr. Rogers} will result in eternal torture
This is what fundamentalist Christianity teaches
And again, it is the fundamentalist Christians that I am addressing

I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me - can't say that I really grasp it as of yet
I'll read through a couple more times

I think we share many of the same contentions where fundamentalist Christianity is concerned and, again, the points that I have been trying to make on this thread are relative to the fundamentalist Christian position - not the one that you hold
Ok, but you were generalizing about things like God and judgment in your initial response to me (post #3) based on one perspective of God and judgment. What if I generalized how evil a-theists are because most a-theists were communists not that long ago and they killed millions? That is how I feel when I read your generalizations. You have cleared some things up in your recent post but it wasn't clear initially.

I still think it is a bit petty of you to characterize the commands of Jesus to 1) love God and 2) to love neighbor, as if Jesus made a mistake when Jesus made it very clear his God was the epitome of Good. You build a case against Jesus who according to scripture does not even believe what you attribute to him and his own words say so. Another time his own disciples wanted to call down fire upon a town who rejected Jesus and he scolded them for manifesting an evil spirit. Anyone who knows the OT knows what reference was being made.

The point is that there is another perspective of God and judgment, specifically, a Good God and fair judgment, which you appear to have nothing against. Maybe state that up front otherwise you sound like a rabid a-theist.
 
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docphin5

Active member
Nobody I know of claims that God sent Mr. Rogers to Hell -LEAST OF ALL ME!
Once again, you are misunderstanding me, Doc
What I said is that it is selfish to send a person to Hell for the 'crime' of not accepting Jesus
This is what God does - according to fundamentalist Christianity - He sends people to Hell for not believing
Even when these people lived good lives {lives dedicated to the service of others - lives just like the one Mr. Rogers lived}
If I may be petty, in defense of myself, your analogy makes your point unclear. By using Mr. Rogers as an analogy of God sending a Good person to hell, you clouded the point, because Mr. Rogers also happens to be a Christian, which you praise in your OP. So the analogy fails in what you intended it to do because no Christian asserts Mr. Rogers went to hell (which is why I asked "Who sent Mr. Rogers to hell" as your analogy implies). You should have picked a Good non-Christian for your analogy to make a case that it is wrong to send a Good person to hell. Just sayin.
 
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Furion

Active member
If I may be petty, in defense of myself, your analogy makes your point unclear. By using Mr. Rogers as an analogy of God sending a Good person to hell, you clouded the point, because Mr. Rogers also happens to be a Christian, which you praise in your OP. So the analogy fails in what you intended it to do (which is why I asked "Who sent Mr. Rogers to hell" as your analogy implies). You should have picked a Good non-Christian for your analogy to make a case that it is wrong to send a Good person to hell. Just sayin.
I'm all dizzy from your many posts arguing with a tree. ;)
 
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