T
TomFL
Guest
No it is not as simple as that
the concept is clearly there but you are playing games demanding the word must be there
the concept is clearly there but you are playing games demanding the word must be there
Theo1689
Well-known member
Yeah, that's usually the excuse when cultists hold to doctrines they can't demonstrate from Scripture...
<chuckle>
You apparently don't understand what the word, "clearly" means.
Sorry, but it can't be both "clearly" and "not as simple" at the same time.
So holding you to Scripture is "playing games"?!
SERIOUSLY?!
T
TomFL
Guest
Again i am more orthodox than you
No one taught your doctrine for the first 400 years of Christian history
It took Augustine and his Gnostic Manichean background to come up with it
Here is an elect to service
Is. 42:1 —KJV
“¶ Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”
But
And will you deny Israel was a servant of God
A chosen (elect ) nation
Will you ?
Theo1689
Well-known member
False.
False and irrelevant.
Sorry, doesn't say "elect to SERVICE".
That is simply your ASSUMPTION.
I'm not denying servant of God.
I'm denying that the mention of "elect" was about "service".
It wasn't.
T
TomFL
Guest
Not false
You cannot show where anyone taught Calvinist determinism is the first 400 years and even Calvinist admit that
No it is not false
And no it is not irrelevant if you are going to go around and call my doctrine cultist
It is the major soteriology of what is probably the largest protestant denomination
You are denying God choses men or nations for service ?
Seriously ?
Elect simply means to chose
Election to service
chosen to serve
Theo1689
Well-known member
I can, and have.
But you'll simply ignore the plain meaning of the words.
So I'm not interested in wasting my time.
Oh I see... You got your feelings hurt, so you want to lash out in anger.
Understood.
That's not how one defines "orthodox".
If "major" means "orthodox", then you should probably convert to Roman Catholicism.
Just sayin'.
No, I'm denying that Scripture uses the term "elect" for service.
And I'm correct.
Yes, "seriously".
Unlike you, I don't play games.
Unlike you, everything I write is "serious".
The term "election" in the Bible ALWAYS refers to salvation, NOT to "service".
I'm sorry that you don't like the facts.
The conversion of Cornelius and those in his house, the first gentile to be saved, in AD 40, ten years after the Spirit of God was poured out on Israel (Unto you first God, Acts 3:26) was in fact the opening of the door of faith to the gentiles. Afterwards, the Jews evangelized the gentiles. We have Paul saying this after his first missionary effort to the gentiles.
Acts 14: 27 they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
The gentiles could not have received the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies by faith, which is the definition of salvation, except and until God gave the gift to them. Let's use reason and logic here. So, no doubt Cornelius had heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and had believed it. No doubt he had seen those Jews who were marvelously changed by the gospel when the Spirit of God came to them. However, God was not giving his gift to gentiles and no amount of believing or seeing would change that. No gentile could receive the Holy Ghost until and unless God had given him to them. What was Cornelius to do before the angel came to him? Was he to go out and repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the apostles hands? What would he have repented of? He did not kill the Lord's Christ. No, Cornelius had much more savvy than any one on this board. He did not even attempt that. He knew this is instructions to the Jews. Nothing physical would work for him. God had to do something. All he could do was something spiritual. He could pray, and he did.
Now, anybody who believes and teaches that Cornelius was saved before Peter showed up in his house and preached the gospel to him is showcasing the fact they do not know what salvation is. Cornelius was not saved. He wanted to be saved. There was no way for him, a gentile, to be saved unless God intervened, which he did.
Reason and logic please. When Peter was called to explain this episode to the other apostles and Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, he recounted all the Lord told him to do and he said this,
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Now, please, if Cornelius was already saved then Peter was on something here and the Bible is proven to be senseless, at least in this situation. At least 4 different persons knew he was not saved according to the text.
1) Cornelius who Peter is quoting in verse 13-14
2) the angel who was the messenger who sent him to Peter
3) God, who sent the angel
4) Peter, the preacher, who was sent to him by God
Who does not know that Cornelius was not saved? Answer! Several on this board.
What is salvation? Do we know what every body present in chapter 11 thought it was? Yes, they all think it was Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost who was the agent of the baptism of gentiles that took place in the home of Cornelius on that day.
Look:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us (Jews), who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
"Believed" is in the past tense. Believing was before the giving of the Holy Ghost and he is the gift of God. He was given to the Jews 10 years earlier and saved them who believed the gospel of Christ. Believing is receiving. Salvation is the Holy Ghost residing in the body of the believers. The Holy ghost was poured out on the gentile world and as many as were thirsty could drink him in by faith and be saved from their sins. The Jews knew this because look at what they said next.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
They did not say Cornelius and his family were granted repentance unto life but they said God had granted to gentiles repentance unto life.
The very next verse says the gospel had only been preached to the Jews but now it is going every where; Look at it.
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
I do not know why this logic would not settle all questions in anyone's mind but here is where Cornelius actually was saved. Read it.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
He was saved before he got baptized. Baptism added nothing to salvation. What we learn from this is that baptism is for saved people.
No one reading this should ever have a question about it again if they believe the words of the scriptures.
Acts 14: 27 they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
The gentiles could not have received the Holy Ghost into their mortal bodies by faith, which is the definition of salvation, except and until God gave the gift to them. Let's use reason and logic here. So, no doubt Cornelius had heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and had believed it. No doubt he had seen those Jews who were marvelously changed by the gospel when the Spirit of God came to them. However, God was not giving his gift to gentiles and no amount of believing or seeing would change that. No gentile could receive the Holy Ghost until and unless God had given him to them. What was Cornelius to do before the angel came to him? Was he to go out and repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the apostles hands? What would he have repented of? He did not kill the Lord's Christ. No, Cornelius had much more savvy than any one on this board. He did not even attempt that. He knew this is instructions to the Jews. Nothing physical would work for him. God had to do something. All he could do was something spiritual. He could pray, and he did.
Now, anybody who believes and teaches that Cornelius was saved before Peter showed up in his house and preached the gospel to him is showcasing the fact they do not know what salvation is. Cornelius was not saved. He wanted to be saved. There was no way for him, a gentile, to be saved unless God intervened, which he did.
Reason and logic please. When Peter was called to explain this episode to the other apostles and Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, he recounted all the Lord told him to do and he said this,
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Now, please, if Cornelius was already saved then Peter was on something here and the Bible is proven to be senseless, at least in this situation. At least 4 different persons knew he was not saved according to the text.
1) Cornelius who Peter is quoting in verse 13-14
2) the angel who was the messenger who sent him to Peter
3) God, who sent the angel
4) Peter, the preacher, who was sent to him by God
Who does not know that Cornelius was not saved? Answer! Several on this board.
What is salvation? Do we know what every body present in chapter 11 thought it was? Yes, they all think it was Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost who was the agent of the baptism of gentiles that took place in the home of Cornelius on that day.
Look:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us (Jews), who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
"Believed" is in the past tense. Believing was before the giving of the Holy Ghost and he is the gift of God. He was given to the Jews 10 years earlier and saved them who believed the gospel of Christ. Believing is receiving. Salvation is the Holy Ghost residing in the body of the believers. The Holy ghost was poured out on the gentile world and as many as were thirsty could drink him in by faith and be saved from their sins. The Jews knew this because look at what they said next.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
They did not say Cornelius and his family were granted repentance unto life but they said God had granted to gentiles repentance unto life.
The very next verse says the gospel had only been preached to the Jews but now it is going every where; Look at it.
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
I do not know why this logic would not settle all questions in anyone's mind but here is where Cornelius actually was saved. Read it.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
He was saved before he got baptized. Baptism added nothing to salvation. What we learn from this is that baptism is for saved people.
No one reading this should ever have a question about it again if they believe the words of the scriptures.
T
TomFL
Guest
No you have not
and you are simply offering excuses now
You see little
You chose to falsely label rather than deal in fact
and it should be pointed out
Did you lose sight of the word protestant
are you calling non Calvinist protestant cultists ?
Sorry you are just playing games
Can you deny God choses men or nations to serve him ?
that is an election to service
Now given that definition can you deny the truth behind it
God choses men and nations to serve him
T
TomFL
Guest
You are in error
Is. 45:4 —KJV
“For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.”
Was the entire nation of Israel elected to salvation
Now you have been corrected
Accept your correction and deal with your error
Theo1689
Well-known member
No, I have NOT "been corrected".
And you have NO AUTHORITY to "correct" me.
Get over yourself.
Theo1689, You would be better served if you learned to believe the words you read and honor context. There was no "elect" before Jacob. Search the scriptures, no one before Jacob was chosen of God and elect, except Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. See Isa 42:1. Election is by a birth. For Israel, one must be born into this family whose Father was Abraham, a type of God the Father. He must be born of Isaac, the promised son and the elect son. Isaac is a type and picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The family of Isaac is formed through Jacob and all Israel is elect because they are born of Jacob, a type and picture of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost is the agent of the formation and building of the body of Christ and all who are in it are in it by a birth, a new birth. There were other children of Abraham and there are other "offspring" of God, but his elect is in Christ, the body of Christ, the church, as was the elect in the OT born into the family by Jacob. Can anything be more clear?
Matt 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
It is not too late to start over. You should consider it.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Thank you for the insult and the personal attack.
I DO "believe the words [I ] read and honor context".
Thank you for your errant opinion.
I will believe Scripture over you.
I do.
That's why I know that you and Tom preach falsehood.
Sorry, "election is by a birth" is UNBIBLICAL.
Election occurred from before the foundation of the world, LONG before anyone was "born".
You simply have no clue what you're talking about.
Since your beliefs are anti-Biblical ,and my beliefs are Biblical, there is no reason for me to "consider" any such thing.
Quite the contrary, YOU need to "consider" "starting over".
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You are just saying that because it is what you want to believe. There are no elect between Jesus Christ and Jacob. There are justified believers in what God says but there are no elect. Election is by a birth into a family. It is the placing of an individual into a corporate body. That is a fact of scripture. Look it up and get back to me.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Nope.
Please cease misrepresenting me by making false claims about what you THINK I "want".
You're not claiming to be a mind-reader, are you?
If not, then kindly restrict your comments to what YOU "want", not what I "want".
I've read through the Bible many times in 30 years.
That's why I know your claims are false.
They are not false and you know it. No one outside Israel (Jacob) are elect in the OT and no one outside the church of Jesus Christ, his body, formed by the Holy Ghost, are elect in the NT. No one.
These two verse says it so plainly no one should miss it as it relates to gentile elect.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, you would falsely claim "from the beginning" refers back to before the foundation of the world, forgetting that "from is a different preposition than "before."
The beginning for gentiles was in Acts 10 when Jesus baptized the nations with the Holy Ghost, according to the prophecy of John the Baptist, and gentiles began to get saved by receiving him by faith.
Jews and Israelis began to get saved in Acts 2 when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost according to the prophecy of John the Baptist.
1 Peter 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Sanctification of the Spirit is to be set apart by the Spirit.
This is truth. I ask you to consider it. there is no shame in changing your mind and your course.
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Theo1689
Well-known member
You are now bearing false witness.
You need to repent.
This is one of the reasons I will NEVER accept any of your false teachings.
Not only is it false, but I do NOT "know it".
You are bearing false witness when you falsely claim I "know" something that is not true.
I'm not interested in your false teachings.
Do you always try to force your false teachings down others' throats?
That supports MY beliefs, not yours.
Now you are bearing false witness about what I allegedly "forget".
Not only that, but you are making false ASSUMPTIONS about my thought process.
No, you teach falsehood, and I will NEVER reject the Bible in favour of the false teachings of an anonymous person on the Internet.
You're right.
Which is why YOU need to "change YOUR mind and YOUR course".
You want me to change my "course" from truth to ERROR.
And that is a foolish thing you are asking me to do.
Well, okay, but the scriptures knows of no elect outside the family of Israel and the family of Jesus Christ. It takes a birth to be elect. Whoever has not been born again is not elect. It is that simple.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Yeah, well, the Mormons say the Scriptures teach multiple gods.
And the JW's say that the Scriptures don't teach that Christ is deity.
And the Catholics say that works are required for salvation.
There are LOTS of people who make claims about "what the Scriptures say", who clearly don't understand the Scriptures.
So you tell me...
Should I blindly accept whatever YOU say about "What the Scriptures say"? (And if so, why you instead of some other anonymous person?
Or should I believe what I ACTUALLY READ in the Scriptures?
I choose option B.
You need to change your beliefs, and get on the true course.
There's no shame in it.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes and ?