Could Transubstantion be true?

JoeT

Member
yes, a believer here posted that after catholic posts conflicted (saying He wasn't/He was), probably nondenom posted the ccc on it.

He is no longer a victim. He wasn't a victim on the cross, He went willingly to die for the sins of mankind. The 2nd person of the Trinity was involved in the plan for it.

catholics claim He was a victim and want to keep Him a victim.

note it also says in an unbloody manner. Without His shed blood it saves no one, it covers the sins of no one.
You're right, but what the Catholic probably meant was that Christ wasn't forced to lay down His life as a "victim" of injustice. Rather He laid down His life willingly as a sacrificial "victim". Every animal sacrificed by the priest in the Old Temple was a "victim" to pay for the sins of the people. In like sense Jesus Christ was a victim who willingly laid down His life for the sins of the people.

In Mass, there is a sacrifice, not a re-sacrifice, but the same sacrifice in time in an unbloody fashion so long as our High Priest, Jesus Christ, remains before the throne of God. If not, your claim to His Promise to pay for your sins ended with buried Christ in about 33 A.D.. If however, our high priest remains before the throne, the Mass is never endings.

JoeT
 
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JoeT

Member
Luther did a great deal of work on his symbolic understanding of sacrament before arriving at the later position he did. You may wish to investigate that? If I find a link I'll pass it along.
Not at all, I prefer reality over the synthetic.
Even if wrong I don't see how a real presence of Christ rooted in promise and the institution of his last will and testament could be considered an appearance of evil.
Zwingli and a few others are credited for establishing today's symbolic view alone and also a symbolic and spiritual position.
It's rooted in the Church because He said, "this is my Body," this is my blood" then "do this". The objective over and above the subjective.

JoeT
 

JoeT

Member
Where's your confession of faith? These things did not occur in a vacuum. I've never counted the pages but one person told me the book of concord he tried to read was over 900 pages long. Lots of work into the faith I proudly confess
And "bible alone" means what?

JoeT
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
In Mass, there is a sacrifice, not a re-sacrifice, but the same sacrifice in time in an unbloody fashion so long as our High Priest, Jesus Christ, remains before the throne of God. If not, your claim to His Promise to pay for your sins ended with buried Christ in about 33 A.D.. If however, our high priest remains before the throne, the Mass is never endings.

JoeT
Unbiblical Catholic nonsense. Jesus both made and completed the sacrifice.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Not at all, I prefer reality over the synthetic.

It's rooted in the Church because He said, "this is my Body," this is my blood" then "do this". The objective over and above the subjective.

JoeT
Yeah. I have no problem with this my body. My problem lies with these are my accidents and substance. But I'm not denying it could be true (the transubsr. stuff). I just prefer to speak as scripture speaks on the matter. I would say that's a more found footing to echoing the words of Christ and Paul. That's my take.
 

Nic

Well-known member
What does "dogma" to do with what I wrote? Nothing?

JoeT
I, more or less know, what dogma is and isn't. I was seeking just a simple definition so that it wasn't my opinion I would reference. But that's not critical at this point anyway. I've answered and officially my position is declaring something as dogma should not only be sourced in scripture but defined in scripture, otherwise it's pious opinion in my view. So clearly I have an issue with the two source theory of inspiration.
 

JoeT

Member
Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35- "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus uses figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

The literal interpretation of eating flesh and drinking blood (cannibalism) is absurd. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life. Eating and drinking here is not about cannibalism, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ unto salvation, as He makes clear in metaphoric and plain language:

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as we see the result is the same, eternal life.

John 6 does not afford any support to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
Pneuma is a Greek word most always translated spirit, it’s meaning however is more an inner force that reaches and unites us to God, that which “quickens”. Catholics are one pneuma with the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17). And, as in John 6:64(63) and in Paul’s Galatians 3 we receive this power from God, you might say as a quickening (which is more often thought of as grace today). Sarx refers to the flesh or the physical body of a person. Thus, in john 6:64 we see it is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh (sarx) profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. If we take this verse to metaphoric then every time “flesh” was used previously in John 6 it is undone if we are to be raised like Christ body, and soul. Hence, what profits the soul will indeed prophet the flesh (or the body).

Pneuma, ‘spirit’, is the inner force moving toward God when quickened. Continuing Christ said it does nothing for the sarx, i.e., the physical body; and how can it? The words He speaks, say Christ are pneuma (about the inner force), the inner force that binds us to life, i.e. God.

Let’s be even clearer still, soma is a Greek word for body as well, however it is the whole person, more literally, ‘the thing that is self’ or person. In Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25 we hear Christ say this is my Body; soma, “the thing that is His Person”, i.e. His essence. To be a person requires body, soul, intellect, and will. Actually, he is saying “toútó estin tó sómá mou”, (this is my body) which means this is His Person; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, the whole or the essence of what Jesus Christ is. And you are told, eat and drink the very essence of Christ; not His symbol, His metaphor, not a empty cross, one without the Corpus Christi, not grape juice that makes us feel all fuzzy inside, but the very substance that is Christ. It’s called the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

My person is not a symbol, pinch me and I protest, guaranteed. One commandment is given by Christ, either partake of the Real Presence in Christ (His Person) else you do not have life in you [John 6:54]. Conversely, “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day." [John 6:55]. Whereas, eating symbols does nothing but put excess weight on the sarx.

Consequently, when partaking a validly consecrated Eucharist worthily , we receive the real Christ (not a fetish) moving us as a force to abide in Him allowing Him to abide in us.


JoeT
 

JoeT

Member
I, more or less know, what dogma is and isn't. I was seeking just a simple definition so that it wasn't my opinion I would reference. But that's not critical at this point anyway. I've answered and officially my position is declaring something as dogma should not only be sourced in scripture but defined in scripture, otherwise it's pious opinion in my view. So clearly I have an issue with the two source theory of inspiration.
I didn't know Protestants had 'dogmas', if they did wouldn't they be purely a subjective thing (each person with his own reasons)?

In any event the dogma of Transubstantiation is as follows:

TRANSUBSTANTIATION: The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain. While the faith behind the term was already believed in apostolic times, the term itself was a later development. With the Eastern Fathers before the sixth century, the favored expression was meta-ousiosis "change of being"; the Latin tradition coined the word transubstantiatio, "change of substance," which was incorporated into the creed of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Council of Trent, in defining the "wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and the whole substance of the wine into the blood" of Christ, added "which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation" (Denzinger 1652). After transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe; they are sustained in existence by divine power. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change + substantia, substance: transubstantiatio, change of substance.) Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.​


JoeT
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Catholics are one pneuma with the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17). And, as in John 6:64(63) and in Paul’s Galatians 3 we receive this power from God, you might say as a quickening (which is more often thought of as grace today).
Not according to the Bible. Catholics are unregenerate cult members who are under the same condemnation as the rest of the unsaved.
And you are told, eat and drink the very essence of Christ; not His symbol
And yet, at the Last Supper, when Jesus was demonstrating this, He didn't take a knife and cut off a finger, he gave them bread as a symbol.
My person is not a symbol, pinch me and I protest, guaranteed. One commandment is given by Christ, either partake of the Real Presence in Christ (His Person) else you do not have life in you [John 6:54]. Conversely, “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day." [John 6:55]. Whereas, eating symbols does nothing but put excess weight on the sarx.
Your weird belief in cannibalism is duly noted.
Consequently, when partaking a validly consecrated Eucharist worthily , we receive the real Christ (not a fetish) moving us as a force to abide in Him allowing Him to abide in us.
Do you do wear a loin cloth and a bone through your nose like the cannibals in the movies?

If you eat Jesus' flesh, do this mean you also excrete Jesus' flesh?
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Think recipe, take Jesus and add two eggs and 2 cups of flour mix it all together and throw it in ty he oven for 45 minutes. It creates a new thing that is no longer identified as it was before you "con the substances" so to speak.
A new thing? Like a new species?

So what is this new thing (singular) that has Jesus and bread in it, that seems to want to be transubstantiation and not transubstantiation at the same time?
 

Hark

Well-known member
Where's your confession of faith? These things did not occur in a vacuum. I've never counted the pages but one person told me the book of concord he tried to read was over 900 pages long. Lots of work into the faith I proudly confess
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead and therefore I am saved. Since I've been reconciled with God & sealed as His with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd helps me to live that reconciled relationship with God by enabling me to trust Him to help me lay aside every weight & sin in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son as His disciple in bearing fruit & having joy.

Simple. 900 pages need not apply.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Why does your opening comment remind me of "Once upon a tiime...?"
I believe Lutheranism confesses biblical Christianity.
But it did not purge everything away from Catholicism that was not Biblical Christianity. Only Jesus Christ can help you see that.

This will happen in every life of a believer so we can bear more fruit in our walks with Him so be open to more pruning from that which is not of Him at all.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

You are bearing fruit, but you & I need to be ready by His help & by His grace to be prune by Him to bear more fruit.
 

Nic

Well-known member
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead and therefore I am saved. Since I've been reconciled with God & sealed as His with the Holy Spirit in me, Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd helps me to live that reconciled relationship with God by enabling me to trust Him to help me lay aside every weight & sin in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son as His disciple in bearing fruit & having joy.

Simple. 900 pages need not apply.
Lots of people have confessions, thank you for providing your paraphrase.
You omitted your 1000 yr belief.
 

JoeT

Member
Not according to the Bible. Catholics are unregenerate cult members who are under the same condemnation as the rest of the unsaved.
According to the adage, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, it would seem there is only one hope for you, to become a repentant Catholic.
And yet, at the Last Supper, when Jesus was demonstrating this, He didn't take a knife and cut off a finger, he gave them bread as a symbol.
You're right, Christ didn't give them and us a piece of Himself, rather the whole enchilada of His person.
Your weird belief in cannibalism is duly noted.

Do you do wear a loin cloth and a bone through your nose like the cannibals in the movies?

If you eat Jesus' flesh, do this mean you also excrete Jesus' flesh?
Do you have any material besides zombie movies? Most people are over the zombie thing by the time they reach the age of 16.

JoeT
 

mica

Well-known member
According to the adage, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, it would seem there is only one hope for you, to become a repentant Catholic.
I draw a blank and move on when I see Latin words. I was raised with it, sang in it and studied it for 2 yrs. I want no more of it in my life, it's a major turn off.

You're right, Christ didn't give them and us a piece of Himself, rather the whole enchilada of His person.
that doesn't happen until one is born again, which is not thru catholicism or water baptism.

Do you have any material besides zombie movies? Most people are over the zombie thing by the time they reach the age of 16.

JoeT
I don't remember you commenting like that about a catholic poster who continually inserted his sci-fi jargon into posts.
 
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