Covenantbreakers

Bonnie

Super Member
John 15:9-14

9 “Just as the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you these things so that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be complete. 12 My commandment is this—to love one another just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than this—that one lays down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Jesus is commanding those who already believe in Him. They obey IN faith, IN salvation.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Now the next question is where is your Biblical EVIDENCE that "works" comes PRIOR to "righteousness"?

If you're using the biblical definition of righteousness the answer is there is none.

That describes a correlation. It does not describe a causation, nor does it say that "works" cause "righteousness".

Yes it does. It states a specific action to achieve a specified outcome.

1 John 3:7

Little children, let no one deceive you: [action] he who works righteousness, [outcome] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

Care to try again?
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
If you're using the biblical definition of righteousness the answer is there is none.


Thank you for admitting that the answer you gave me is without Biblical support.

Yes it does. It states a specific action to achieve a specified outcome.

1 John 3:7

Little children, let no one deceive you: [action] he who works righteousness, [outcome] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

Care to try again?

Sorry, but my copy of the Bible (and I've got about 20 different translations in English, 2 in French, and 2 versions of the Greek) does NOT have the words "action" and "outcome" in that verse.

You have ASSUMED those labels and ADDED them to the text.

What 1 John 3:7 says, is that it is describing a type of person, and giving two observations:
- they work righteous;
- they are righteous.

Unfortunately, the English language is linear, and so you can't make two assertions at the exact same time, you have to make one assertion, and then make the second assertion. Therefore, you cannot ASSUME "cause-and-effect", simply on the order they appear in the sentence. You have to have words (in the TEXT, not added later) that say "because", or "since", or "causes", or something that explicitly identifies the cause.

So, can you give me any Biblical support WITHOUT you bastardizing the text by adding things like "[action]" and "[outcome]"?

(Yeah, I didn't think so.)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What is the result of disobeying the commandments?

I'm pretty sure Bonnie isn't a Mormon.
So any answer to your questions would not be on-topic for the MORMONISM forum.

Why don't you try using your "indicative statements"? ;)
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member
If you're using the biblical definition of righteousness the answer is there is none.

Nonsense!

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:30-31
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security. We must continue to perform just or good works after salvation or risk being separated from God. (Psalm 15:2; Romans 9:30; 1 John 3:7)
Correct. Salvation isn't permission to do whatever we want. the point of learning to do good works is to teach us that our salvation depends on it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Correct. Salvation isn't permission to do whatever we want. the point of learning to do good works is to teach us that our salvation depends on it.

Then perhaps you can address the following?:


Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Then perhaps you can address the following?:

Ephesians 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Ephesians 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Ephesians 2:8 doesn’t say we are saved by faith. It says says instead that we are saved by God’s grace through faith. Ephesians always tells us what happens through faith and never what happens by faith.

Ephesians 2:9 does not mean that good works aren’t required. Clearly good works are required, because according to Ephesians 2:10, that’s what we’re created for.

The Protestant response to this is that good works are the fruits of faith.

Good works flow from our faith. Good works are a result of faith. They don’t save us; faith does.

Unfortunately the sad reality that Protestants must come to grips with is that nowhere in the Bible does it actually say that good works are the fruits of faith.

Good works are the fruits of Jesus Christ abiding in us and flowing through us. Since they are not even ours we can't boast in them.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
This was its (notice no apostrophe) strictest meaning.

But you miss two points:

1) This is speaking of GOD's justice in responding to man's actions, not man's imaginary "ability" to do good works. It is an ACTUAL statement about GOD's justice.

2) The set of people who "by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality" is ZERO.

Where does Paul claim anywhere in Romans 2 that his teaching (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is hypothetical?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Where does Paul claim anywhere in Romans 2 that his teaching (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is hypothetical?
He didn't--but do we do those deeds IN faith, IN salvation, or FOR salvation? For Paul makes it clear that neither works done in righteousness OR works of the Law will save us or justify us.....so, what say you? Deeds done IN salvation, or FOR salvation?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

What does being created IN Christ Jesus mean? In your own words, please?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Ephesians 2:8 doesn’t say we are saved by faith. It says says instead that we are saved by God’s grace through faith. Ephesians always tells us what happens through faith and never what happens by faith.

Ephesians 2:9 does not mean that good works aren’t required. Clearly good works are required, because according to Ephesians 2:10, that’s what we’re created for.

Okay... Let's see what you've done so far...

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You addressed the portion bolded in black, but you IGNORED the part I've got in red.
For MONTHS you've IGNORED the part in read, "not of works".

For some bizarre reason, your mind interprets "not of works" as allegedly meaning "works ARE required".

And as God says:

Isa. 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If Paul's teachings in Romans 2 (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is literal then there has to be two types of works or else he would be contradicting himself.

So you are basically admitting that you are ASSUMING "two kinds of works", based on your UNDERSTANDING of the meaning of the passage (which could be right or wrong).

Do you consider yourself infallible?
Or do you admit that your understanding could be wrong?
 
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