Covenantbreakers

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Challenge to Become
Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I'm sorry, but this resource is NOWHERE found in the "Standard Works", and so does NOT represent "official teaching" of Mormonism, at least according to the "Standards" of the Mormons here.

First of all, thank you for this diamond in the ruff - or pearl of great price.

You are mistaken.
The above UNINSPIRED OPINION by Oaks is not found in the "Pearl of Great Price", and therefore does NOT constitute nor represent "official teaching" of the LDS church, at least according to the STANDARDS the Mormons here try to shove down our throats.
(Double standards much?)
 

Mesenja

Active member
Obedience does not lead to justification; faith does, which THEN leads to obedience, since we are made a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord, obeying from the heart.

Abraham was justified by faith


"Abraham believed (had faith in) God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3;Genesis 15:6).

Abraham was justified by obedience


God said to him, "In your seed (descendant) all nations of the earth will be blessed because you obeyed my voice" (Genesis 22:17-18)

We are justified like Abraham


Those who "follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham" (Romans 4:12) will be justified like Abraham through a faith like Abraham's — "justified as a gift by God’s grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24)

We are justified by our faith of obedience.

Hebrews 5:9

9
And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Romans 1:5

5
Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name.

 

Mesenja

Active member
I'm sorry, but this resource is NOWHERE found in the "Standard Works", and so does NOT represent "official teaching" of Mormonism, at least according to the "Standards" of the Mormons here.

Since when are we limited only to the Standard Works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

You are mistaken. The above UNINSPIRED OPINION by Oaks is not found in the "Pearl of Great Price", and therefore does NOT constitute nor represent "official teaching" of the LDS church, at least according to the STANDARDS the Mormons here try to shove down our throats.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks referenced several scriptural in his talk.

(Double standards much?)

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Bonnie

Super Member

Abraham was justified by faith


"Abraham believed (had faith in) God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3;Genesis 15:6).

Abraham was justified by obedience


God said to him, "In your seed (descendant) all nations of the earth will be blessed because you obeyed my voice" (Genesis 22:17-18)

We are justified like Abraham


Those who "follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham" (Romans 4:12) will be justified like Abraham through a faith like Abraham's — "justified as a gift by God’s grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24)

We are justified by our faith of obedience.

Hebrews 5:9

9
And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Romans 1:5

5
Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name.

Faith leads to obedience. We obey IN salvation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Faith doesn't automatically give us either the desire or ability to always act in obedience.

Define "faith".

God doesn't make that choice for us.

God makes certain choices.
That's what the Bible teaches.

Please exegete the following for us:

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Phil. 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


And please don't tell us what these verses "don't" mean...
Tell us what these verses DO mean.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Faith doesn't automatically give us either the desire or ability to always act in obedience. We make that choice. God doesn't make that choice for us. That's what sincere repentance is for.
True faith leads to being made a new creation in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit transforms us from the inside out, so we WANT to obey Jesus. He gives us a whole new attitude. It is all God's doing. I praise His holy Name that it is!
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, I agree with you on this that Paul distinguishes between two types of work that being works of the law and works of righteousness.
Exactly! We can only pray that eventually these people who claim they believe the Bible actually will, one day, believe the Bible.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Exactly! We can only pray that eventually these people who claim they believe the Bible actually will, one day, believe the Bible.

Amen!

Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other  besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither  is there any  God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32 For who  is  God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any  God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me  there is  no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not  any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else besides me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and  there is  none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is  none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.

Exactly! We can only pray that eventually these people who claim they believe the Bible actually will, one day, believe the Bible.

Amen!

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
It figures that you weren't going to pay close attention to the words.
Typical Mormon. Quotes a single word of the response, ignoring and failing to deal with the rest of it. What follows the word "through" in Ephesians 2:8? Going to divert again? It isn't works as you were trying to claim, although you have redefined words to mean something else during your time here on CARM.
 

Mesenja

Active member
Define "faith".

Confidence in something or someone. As most often used in the scriptures, faith is confidence and trust in Jesus Christ that leads a person to obey Him. Faith must be centered in Jesus Christ in order for it to lead a person to salvation. Latter-day Saints also have faith in God the Father, the Holy Ghost, priesthood power, and other important aspects of the restored gospel.

Faith includes hope for things that are not seen, but which are true. Faith is kindled by hearing the gospel taught by authorized administrators sent by God. Miracles do not produce faith, but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, faith comes from righteousness.

True faith brings miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that He gives to His Saints. By faith, one obtains a remission of sins and eventually is able to dwell in God’s presence. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

God makes certain choices. That's what the Bible teaches.

That doesn't absolve us from the consequences of our own choices.

Please exegete the following for us:

Okay.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We will be saved from the effects of the Fall by grace and will be judged and rewarded according to our works. This follows from the fact that we will be held accountable for our own deeds and choices. As grace makes us capable of performing good works then not cooperating with God's grace is to reject it. To cooperate with God's grace is to willingly “work on to the finish,” or “carry out to the goal” by performing the good works that "God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12-13

12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God gives us the necessary grace for our salvation. We cooperate with God by appropriating that grace allowing it to work within us and through us with the subsequent result that our obedience enables us to work out our salvation. Paul does not attempt to reconcile God's sovereignty with our free will but teaches both.



And please don't tell us what these verses "don't" mean...Tell us what these verses DO mean.

Got it.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Confidence in something or someone. As most often used in the scriptures, faith is confidence and trust in Jesus Christ that leads a person to obey Him. Faith must be centered in Jesus Christ in order for it to lead a person to salvation. Latter-day Saints also have faith in God the Father, the Holy Ghost, priesthood power, and other important aspects of the restored gospel.

Agree with the first part, but not the part about" faith in priesthood power and other important aspects of the restored gospel." Where does the Bible say faith in those is necessary for salvation?
Faith includes hope for things that are not seen, but which are true. Faith is kindled by hearing the gospel taught by authorized administrators sent by God.

Faith is kindled by hearing or reading the true Gospel from ANYONE--one can even come to saving faith in Jesus Christ by reading the Bible for himself/herself. No need for some "authorized administrators" sent by God. ALL believers can spread the gospel.
Miracles do not produce faith, but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, faith comes from righteousness.
You have it backwards. RIGHTEOUSNESS COMES FROM FAITH.

Romans 3:--21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

And

Phil. 3--
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith..

And

Abram believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness

What was counted to Abe as righteousness?


True faith brings miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that He gives to His Saints. By faith, one obtains a remission of sins and eventually is able to dwell in God’s presence. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.



That doesn't absolve us from the consequences of our own choices.

No, we must be held accountable for our bad decisions. But thanks be to Jesus Christ, when we confess our bad choices and suffer the consequences for them, "God, Who is faithful and just, will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."
Okay.



We will be saved from the effects of the Fall by grace and will be judged and rewarded according to our works. This follows from the fact that we will be held accountable for our own deeds and choices. If grace makes us capable of performing good works then not cooperating with God's grace is to reject it. To cooperate with God's grace is to willingly “work on to the finish,” or “carry out to the goal” by performing the good works that "God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Grace is more than just the ability to do something God wants us to do--it is God's UNdeserved favor. God give us His grace solely because He loves us, on account of His mercy.

Tell us--are the "good works" God has prepared for us to do include the Temple works, covenants, and rituals done therein?
Philippians 2:12-13

12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God gives us the necessary grace for our salvation. We cooperate with God by appropriating that grace allowing it to work within us and through us with the subsequent result that our obedience enables us to work out our salvation. Paul does not attempt to reconcile God's sovereignty with our free will but teaches both.





Got it.
Hebrews tells us what 'faith" is:

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

True faith in Jesus Christ most certainly DOES lead us to obedience--but that is the RESULT OF IT.

We cannot and do not "cooperate' with God when He gives us His grace. The HS gives us a new "attitude", transforming us from the inside out, so that we are a new creation, that WANTS to obey and please God, for our will has then become conformed with His.
 
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Mesenja

Active member
True faith leads to being made a new creation in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit transforms us from the inside out, so we WANT to obey Jesus. He gives us a whole new attitude. It is all God's doing. I praise His holy Name that it is!

Unless you believe that God works by the principle of Don Vito Corleone's "I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse." then it is always our choice to do good works. The Holy Spirit only gives us a greater disposition to do good works, not the infallibility and inevitability of always doing them.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Unless you believe that God works by the principle of Don Vito Corleone's "I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse." then it is always our choice to do good works. The Holy Spirit only gives us a greater disposition to do good works, not the infallibility and inevitability of always doing them.
Do we do those good deeds IN faith our OUTSIDE of faith? I never said we did them infallibly. But are they done IN faith, or OUTSIDE of faith? Can deeds done outside of faith please God?

Hebrews 11:6
English Standard Version

6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

And

Is. 64--
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls upon your name,
who rouses himself to take hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us,
and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

And

Jer. 17--
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

And

Romans 3--
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

You seem to think that man has some good in him, prior to faith in Jesus Christ--is that correct? Before men, he might, but not before God. What else does Paul write?

Eph. 2-- And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest

What are we by nature, the children of? BEFORE we are regenerated?

So, how are we made new? On account of what? Paul continues:

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

On account of what are we saved?

And those good deeds Paul says God has prepared for us to do--do they include the Mormon Temple works/covenants?
 

Mesenja

Active member
Do we do those good deeds IN faith our OUTSIDE of faith? I never said we did them infallibly. But are they done IN faith, or OUTSIDE of faith?

God initiates our salvation by his grace. Our works of obedience which follow are also the work of grace.

This is what Paul means in Philippians 2:12-13 when he says we’re to work out our salvation and yet reminds us that “it is God who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”


On account of what are we saved?

Our efforts to follow Jesus Christ and keep His commandments are necessary but insufficient to qualify us for salvation. Our salvation is made possible only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ.
 

Mesenja

Active member
What was counted to Abraham as righteousness

Genesis 15:6

6
Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord credited it as righteousness to him.

Romans 4:3

3
For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

No, we must be held accountable for our bad decisions.

How does God hold us accountable for our bad decisions?

But thanks be to Jesus Christ, when we confess our bad choices and suffer the consequences for them, "God, Who is faithful and just, will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."

If God is faithful and just and forgives us of our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness then it follows that our works whether good or bad are the measure and means of how we will be judged as to our righteousness.

James 3:11-12

11
A spring does not pour out fresh water and bitter water from the same opening, does it? 12 Can a fig tree produce olives, my brothers and sisters, or a vine produce figs? Neither can a saltwater spring produce fresh water.


Grace is more than just the ability to do something God wants us to do--it is God's UNdeserved favor. God give us His grace solely because He loves us, on account of His mercy.

I never said that this is all that defines faith.


We cannot and do not "cooperate' with God when He gives us His grace. The Holy Spirit gives us a new "attitude", transforming us from the inside out, so that we are a new creation, that WANTS to obey and please God, for our will has then become conformed with His.

1. God synergized or worked with the apostles in their ministry of preaching.


Mark 16:20

20
And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen


2. God cooperates for good with those who love God and are called according to his purpose.


Mark 16:20

20
And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Typical Mormon. Quotes a single word of the response, ignoring and failing to deal with the rest of it. What follows the word "through" in Ephesians 2:8? Going to divert again? It isn't works as you were trying to claim, although you have redefined words to mean something else during your time here on CARM.
Typical of our critics. They insist that we focus on 4 or 5 words and ignore the context of the scriptures. What do we see in Eph 2:10?

It is works because faith without works is dead. We cannot access salvational grace through dead faith.
 

Mesenja

Active member
Typical of our critics. They insist that we focus on 4 or 5 words and ignore the context of the scriptures. What do we see in Ephesians 2:10? It is works because faith without works is dead. We cannot access salvational grace through dead faith.

It's also typical that whenever faith is mentioned anywhere in the Bible they also see the word alone.
 
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