Covenantbreakers

Theo1689

Well-known member
It's also typical that whenever faith is mentioned anywhere in the Bible they also see the word alone.

Well, funny thing, that....

Mormons seem to LOVE quoting the ECF's... But it was the ECF's who seemed to understand the concept of "faith ALONE":



“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but
by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of
faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
 

Mesenja

Active member
Well, funny thing, that....

Mormons seem to LOVE quoting the ECF's... But it was the ECF's who seemed to understand the concept of "faith ALONE":

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)

Has the topic now shifted to the Early Church Fathers?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Has the topic now shifted to the Early Church Fathers?

As I remember it, you were the one who was whining about people reading the word, "alone" after the word, "faith". Do you deny whining about that? I can quote you if your memory is as bad as Biden's....

And since Mormons LOVE quoting the ECF's so much, I'm not sure what exactly you're objecting to... Are you NOW saying that the ECF's are unreliable, after spending so many years quoting them trying to justify Mormonism?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Mesenja said:
Has the topic now shifted to the Early Church Fathers? This is off topic here on the Mormon Forum.

That's a real neat trick, quoting yourself with text what was never in your original message.
Do you realize that you're actually MISQUOTING yourself?!
FASCINATING! ;)

At any rate, I hope you remember that YOUR personal rule is that "the Early Church Fathers" are "off topic here in the Mormon forum", the next time @dberrie2020 or one of your other LDS buddies tries to quote the ECF's.

But I'm guessing that by that time, you'll have forgotten, right?
Double standards much? ;) ;)
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Typical of our critics. They insist that we focus on 4 or 5 words and ignore the context of the scriptures. What do we see in Eph 2:10?

It is works because faith without works is dead. We cannot access salvational grace through dead faith.

It is amazing to contemplate the idea that God has prepared good works for us to do!

In the Bible we learn that good works or observance of religious rites and rituals cannot earn salvation. Paul writing to the believers in Ephesus says, ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’ (Ephesians 2:8–10).

We should note firstly that he addresses them as people who ‘have been saved’. They are a people who have already been redeemed. Although there is a future eschatological dimension to that salvation, insofar as they are a people who are yet to be transported to heaven, they may have confidence in that salvation in the here and now. This is entirely consistent with the way Paul opens his letter to the church in Ephesus when he says: ‘To the saints in Ephesus’.

This assurance of eternal salvation is obtainable by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Paul reminds them that salvation is something bestowed upon them by God’s grace. Then he explicitly states that salvation is not achieved by works and this is such an explicit statement one wonders how any system of religious belief can deviate from such a clear statement of truth. As Jonathan Edwards put it, ‘If there be ground for you to trust in your own righteousness, then all that Christ did to purchase salvation, and all that God did to prepare the way for it, is in vain.’

These verses in Ephesians comprise a truly wonderful statement. Christians should often meditate upon them because they liberate people from the treadmill of good works offered to God to earn salvation found in Mormonism. However, Paul then goes on to explain the proper place of good works in the life of the Christian: ‘For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’.

Salvation is never the outcome of good deeds but good deeds will invariably be the outcome of salvation. In Christ we are people who are remade. It is out of gratitude for his great grace that we become instruments of goodness in his hands.​

On the other hand Mormonism has a very distinctive view on salvation. The foundation for its belief is in the LDS third Article of Faith (see also Articles of Faith). “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
 

Mesenja

Active member
That's a real neat trick, quoting yourself with text what was never in your original message.

It was a mistake. I'm sure you've committed one or two in your lifetime.

Do you realize that you're actually MISQUOTING yourself?

I wasn't trying to quote myself. It also wasn't a misquote. This was what I originally meant to say. I made a mistake.

FASCINATING! ;)

Yes it's fascinating that you always try to see the worst motives in people.

At any rate, I hope you remember that YOUR personal rule is that "the Early Church Fathers" are "off topic here in the Mormon forum", the next time @dberrie2020 or one of your other LDS buddies tries to quote the Early Church Father's.

Just as I hope you remember to abide by your own rules.

But I'm guessing that by that time, you'll have forgotten, right?

You're such a sweetheart.

Double standards much? ;) ;)

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
 

Mesenja

Active member
It is amazing to contemplate the idea that God has prepared good works for us to do!

In the Bible we learn that good works or observance of religious rites and rituals cannot earn salvation. Paul writing to the believers in Ephesus says, ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’ (Ephesians 2:8–10).

We should note firstly that he addresses them as people who ‘have been saved’. They are a people who have already been redeemed. Although there is a future eschatological dimension to that salvation, insofar as they are a people who are yet to be transported to heaven, they may have confidence in that salvation in the here and now. This is entirely consistent with the way Paul opens his letter to the church in Ephesus when he says: ‘To the saints in Ephesus’.

This assurance of eternal salvation is obtainable by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Paul reminds them that salvation is something bestowed upon them by God’s grace. Then he explicitly states that salvation is not achieved by works and this is such an explicit statement one wonders how any system of religious belief can deviate from such a clear statement of truth. As Jonathan Edwards put it, ‘If there be ground for you to trust in your own righteousness, then all that Christ did to purchase salvation, and all that God did to prepare the way for it, is in vain.’

These verses in Ephesians comprise a truly wonderful statement. Christians should often meditate upon them because they liberate people from the treadmill of good works offered to God to earn salvation found in Mormonism. However, Paul then goes on to explain the proper place of good works in the life of the Christian: ‘For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’.

Salvation is never the outcome of good deeds but good deeds will invariably be the outcome of salvation. In Christ we are people who are remade. It is out of gratitude for his great grace that we become instruments of goodness in his hands.​

On the other hand Mormonism has a very distinctive view on salvation. The foundation for its belief is in the LDS third Article of Faith (see also Articles of Faith). “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

Then why is the final judgment in scripture always associated with works and never by faith alone?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Then why is the final judgment in scripture always associated with works and never by faith alone?
Because those works are done IN faith and are completed in Christ. So, Jesus will see the works that we have done in Him, and were made perfect in Him.

But we still cannot ignore John 3:16, Luke 7:50, Ephesians 2:8-9, and the myriad of other verses that say we are saved by grace/faith and NOT by works, either of the Law or done in righteousness.

But do those works that we are judged by include Mormon temple works and covenants?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
It is amazing to contemplate the idea that God has prepared good works for us to do!

In the Bible we learn that good works or observance of religious rites and rituals cannot earn salvation. Paul writing to the believers in Ephesus says, ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’ (Ephesians 2:8–10).

We should note firstly that he addresses them as people who ‘have been saved’. They are a people who have already been redeemed. Although there is a future eschatological dimension to that salvation, insofar as they are a people who are yet to be transported to heaven, they may have confidence in that salvation in the here and now. This is entirely consistent with the way Paul opens his letter to the church in Ephesus when he says: ‘To the saints in Ephesus’.

This assurance of eternal salvation is obtainable by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Paul reminds them that salvation is something bestowed upon them by God’s grace. Then he explicitly states that salvation is not achieved by works and this is such an explicit statement one wonders how any system of religious belief can deviate from such a clear statement of truth. As Jonathan Edwards put it, ‘If there be ground for you to trust in your own righteousness, then all that Christ did to purchase salvation, and all that God did to prepare the way for it, is in vain.’

These verses in Ephesians comprise a truly wonderful statement. Christians should often meditate upon them because they liberate people from the treadmill of good works offered to God to earn salvation found in Mormonism. However, Paul then goes on to explain the proper place of good works in the life of the Christian: ‘For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’.

Salvation is never the outcome of good deeds but good deeds will invariably be the outcome of salvation. In Christ we are people who are remade. It is out of gratitude for his great grace that we become instruments of goodness in his hands.​

On the other hand Mormonism has a very distinctive view on salvation. The foundation for its belief is in the LDS third Article of Faith (see also Articles of Faith). “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
And do those "laws and ordinances" include the temple and the endowment and covenants done and made therein? :)
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Genesis 15:6

6
Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord credited it as righteousness to him.

Romans 4:3

3
For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Good. Abe's faith was counted to him as righteousness--WITHOUT works on his part. Interesting that you quote the verses, rather than simply telling me it was his faith.



How does God hold us accountable for our bad decisions?
The Law shows us our sin and the need to repent. The indwelling HS then convicts us of our sin and leads us to repent. Of course, if we break man's laws, the secular authorities hold us accountable for that and we must suffer the consequences of breaking those laws. But not from God....an example...my husband was chaplain for over 5 years to a man on death row, convicted of second degree murder. He was guilty and admitted it. My husband gently led him back to faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, and he was able to bring him Holy Communion right before he was executed. The man confessed his sins to Jesus and his faith in Him, and my husband assured him he that he was completely forgiven. My husband was in the room behind glass when he was executed by lethal injection. His last words were about how he knew God had saved him. So, while he had to suffer consequences for his sin of murder with secular authorities, he did NOT from God, for he was completely forgiven in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If God is faithful and just and forgives us of our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness then it follows that our works whether good or bad are the measure and means of how we will be judged as to our righteousness.

No, we will be judged on account of Jesus Christ in us. Doing good is believing in Jesus Christ unto salvation, great and free, which then lead to doing good works, done IN faith. Those works are perfected by Christ in us.
James 3:11-12

11
A spring does not pour out fresh water and bitter water from the same opening, does it? 12 Can a fig tree produce olives, my brothers and sisters, or a vine produce figs? Neither can a saltwater spring produce fresh water.

Sure! And as long as we remain branched attached to the Vine, we can bear fruit pleasing to God. But that ability comes from the Vine, not from the branches themselves.
I never said that this is all that defines faith.

But what is the proper definition of faith? Hebrews 11:1 tells us--

Faith in Action

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Faith isn't works. Faith LEADS to doing good works.
1. God synergized or worked with the apostles in their ministry of preaching.

God enabled His apostles to do what He wanted them to do, but that doesn't mean they were able to "cooperate" with Him. The unregenerated are incapable of doing so, and are by nature, children of wrath, dead in trespasses and sins. They must be raised to new life by Someone outside of themselves. Just as the dead people Jesus raised from the dead had no power to raise themselves but were entirely dependent upon Jesus to do so.
Mark 16:20

20
And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen

Sure! As Paul also wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:10

New International Version

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
2. God cooperates for good with those who love God and are called according to his purpose.


Mark 16:20

20
And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen
God does not "cooperate" with us, per se. He works IN us via the indwelling HS, to accomplish His will. He produces a totally new attitude within us, that enables us to WANT to do His will. He transforms us from the inside out, making us a new creation.

Nice chatting with you. :)
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Typical of our critics. They insist that we focus on 4 or 5 words and ignore the context of the scriptures. What do we see in Eph 2:10?

It is works because faith without works is dead. We cannot access salvational grace through dead faith.
And the Mormon yet once again displays the uncanny ability to misread and redefine what scripture doesn't say.

The Mormon was asked what follows the word "through" in Ephesians 2:8. He diverts and answers "works" and instead refers to ephesians 2:10, refusing to actually engage Ephesians 2:8 on which the question was based. What does the scripture actually say (Lurkers pay attention here)?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
(Ephesians 2:8 NKJV)

You can't read a simple sentence and explain where words are in a simple sentence and redefine words and meanings in a simple sentence that do not exist. That shows a a total lack of comprehension and yet you want to engage in discussion on Mormon beliefs which would require comprehension and clear reading of texts and their context.

You have really nothing of substance to offer here but your apparent misguided logic. No need to pay attention to anything you write or say.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
And do those "laws and ordinances" include the temple and the endowment and covenants done and made ther

The Book of Mormon teaches in 2 Nephi 25:23: “For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do”.

What do Mormons mean “by grace” here and what do they mean by “after all we can do”? All we can do means jumping through every hoop correctly that is held up by Mormonism. That would definitely include the temple and the endowment and covenants done and made therein.
 

RCM

Active member
Then why is the final judgment in scripture always associated with works and never by faith alone?


Mesenja,

You need to understand Biblical Scripture and Theology in a consistent manner, then you would see what many here have been trying to tell you.

Revelation 20:11-15 with commentary in bold and supporting Biblical Scripture below.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, (God the Father and God the Son, Jesus, are not God of the dead) the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; (God has several books) and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds (dead/lost are judged according to works). And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life (Salvation is by Faith, a person's name is written in the Book of Life, by Faith), he was thrown into the lake of fire."



Matthew 22:31-32 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 'I AM the GOD of ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD of ISAAC, AND THE GOD of JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 20:30-31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.



RCM
 
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John t

Super Member
The Mormon was asked what follows the word "through" in Ephesians 2:8. He diverts and answers "works" and instead refers to ephesians 2:10, refusing to actually engage Ephesians 2:8 on which the question was based. What does the scripture actually say (Lurkers pay attention here)?

You are not incorrect, but you should understand that the Mormon is merely playing insipid Mormo-games.

The name of the game here is "Answer what they SHOULD have asked", and that is the reason why your statement was ignored. As a consequence of the game, the Mormons playing this game have "license to misquote a Christian, and then turn the issue into justifying Mormon theology", which is his ultimate aim: "conversion" via deception. (AKA "lying for Joseph")

Thus he desires to promulgate Mormonism's aberrant theology, and insert into the "discussion" fiery darts that undermine what the Bible clearly state, and what we Christians attempt to explain.

When one sees this sort of charade clearly, iit is quite easy to describe it to others so they will not go off to another dimention of time and space through the "Mormon worm hole" --I am a trekkie, and this accurately describes what they do.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are not incorrect, but you should understand that the Mormon is merely playing insipid Mormo-games.

The name of the game here is "Answer what they SHOULD have asked", and that is the reason why your statement was ignored. As a consequence of the game, the Mormons playing this game have "license to misquote a Christian, and then turn the issue into justifying Mormon theology", which is his ultimate aim: "conversion" via deception. (AKA "lying for Joseph")

Thus he desires to promulgate Mormonism's aberrant theology, and insert into the "discussion" fiery darts that undermine what the Bible clearly state, and what we Christians attempt to explain.

When one sees this sort of charade clearly, iit is quite easy to describe it to others so they will not go off to another dimention of time and space through the "Mormon worm hole" --I am a trekkie, and this accurately describes what they do.
You are correct, John. Look at the answer I get when I ask what Jesus says actually saved the woman in Luke 7:50--the actual word. But some Mormons would rather have their fingernails ripped off without anesthesia, than answer correctly, with the hated word "faith."
 

Mesenja

Active member
Which is it. Are there basically 2 types of works or does Paul not split up different kinds of "works" into "works of grace", and "works of debt".

Bonnie: IF you would tell me in your own words what it means to be CREATED IN Jesus Christ, you might understand what Paul is getting at. There are basically 2 types of works--works of the Law and works of righteousness--Paul makes it clear that neither saves us.

Theo1689: Paul is NOT splitting up different kinds of "works" into "works of grace", and "works of debt". He is saying that ALL work puts the one you're working for in debt to you.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Which is it. Are there basically 2 types of works or does Paul not split up different kinds of "works" into "works of grace", and "works of debt".

Bonnie: IF you would tell me in your own words what it means to be CREATED IN Jesus Christ, you might understand what Paul is getting at. There are basically 2 types of works--works of the Law and works of righteousness--Paul makes it clear that neither saves us.

Theo1689: Paul is NOT splitting up different kinds of "works" into "works of grace", and "works of debt". He is saying that ALL work puts the one you're working for in debt to you.

Well, let's see all the problems with this fallacious post:

1) This is the MORMONISM forum, and neither Bonnie nor I are Mormons. But since Mormons can't defend their bankrupt theology, they have to constantly resort to trying to attack Christians.

2) I guess you are unaware that "law", "righteousness", "grace", and "debt" are all DIFFERENT terms, so I'm not sure how or why you are trying to put those assertions together.

3) You provided ZERO context for each of those statements, and provided no links to enable people to (1) actually READ them in CONTEXT, or (2) even confirm that they are accurate quotes. This is a clear breach of CARM rules.


So did you want to actually discuss MORMONISM, or do you want to keep running away from it because you know it's bankrupt and worthless?
 
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