Covenantbreakers

Theo1689

Well-known member
“In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” Where is the scriptural support for this? Let me save you time and effort. There is none. Your welcome.

1) Responding to a 9-month-old post? Seriously?

2) You don't agree that "in all things charity" is Biblical? Seriously?

3) You don't agree that "in essentials unity" is Biblical? Seriously?

4) You don't agree that "in non-essentials liberty" is Biblical (Rom. 14:5)? Seriously?
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
1) Responding to a 9-month-old post? Seriously?

2) You don't agree that "in all things charity" is Biblical? Seriously?

3) You don't agree that "in essentials unity" is Biblical? Seriously?

4) You don't agree that "in non-essentials liberty" is Biblical (Rom. 14:5)? Seriously?

Yes seriously.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
I think some of these people do not understand their own doctrine.
Weird in a way. There are several Mormons who don't know all the teachings (they haven't had enough free time to study all the important teachings). Sacrament Meeting doesn't cover these things. Many, many Mormons haven't even thought about this.
 
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Janice Bower

Well-known member
I think some of these people do not understand their own doctrine.
Their scriptures don't mention it so some of them don't believe anything not in scriptures. Others listen to leaders and believe teachings not in scriptures. There is no heavenly mother in their scriptures, but they also believe their hymns are accurate. For instance, there are hymns: O My Father and Praise to the Man. Look at the lyrics to those.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Nope.
Paul NEVER taught about "works of grace".
He always CONTRASTED "works" and "grace":

So--connecting obedience with His grace--isn't works of grace?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And wasn't there another kind of works--which had the opposite effect?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Then--there was Paul's favorite--the works of the law:(circumcision)

1 Corinthians 7:19--King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
However, in post no. 381, you did write that Paul is saying ALL works put us in debt to God.

All are indebted to God--works or no works.

So--how would one explain Paul's words here?

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It is rather obvious, isn't it? I have seen Mormons on here try to set Theo and me against each other, because of differences in a few peripheral beliefs between our two churches--beliefs that are not necessary for salvation--by pointing out to both of us that our churches disagree with each other in a few areas. Neither of us has ever taken the bait. In fact, we have both avered that we are brother and sister in Christ Jesus.

There are some major differences between Reformed and your theology--such as the Atonement being for all men--or the "few".(just for the record)

But, that is not the most significant difference one can experience. The real significance is when one differs with the Savior Himself:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So--connecting obedience with His grace--isn't works of grace?

What part of "works are not grace" don't you understand?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

No mention of "grace" there.

And wasn't there another kind of works--which had the opposite effect?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

No mention of "grace" there.

Then--there was Paul's favorite--the works of the law:(circumcision)

1 Corinthians 7:19--King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

No mention of "grace" there.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
It is rather obvious, isn't it? I have seen Mormons on here try to set Theo and me against each other, because of differences in a few peripheral beliefs between our two churches--beliefs that are not necessary for salvation--by pointing out to both of us that our churches disagree with each other in a few areas. Neither of us has ever taken the bait. In fact, we have both avered that we are brother and sister in Christ Jesus. This pitting Theo and me against each other is also a diversionary tactic. Old hat.

You are under the mistaken assumption that Jesus plus nothing is the formula for our salvation.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
So exactly what do you think Jesus failed at, that we need to "add"?
Jesus did not fail, in fact He volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb... the real question is why Christian fail to understand Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost and all other covenants and ordinances Christ taught... Even Christ knew he fulfilled.... " He said His baptism was necessary “to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
We are justified before God by grace alone. We are not justified through our obedience. We are not justified through our works. We are not justified through our faith.

Faith justifies initially but works that are done only under the auspices of God’s grace perfect and complete our justification.

Paul taught “for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” (Romans 2:13) Paul here is referring to the “law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2), not “works of the law” The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace.

Our relationship to God is synergistic necessitating that we respond positively to God’s grace and not reject it. God owes us nothing. As God provides us with grace thereby preparing us for a response of gratitude and good works we can not boast in ourselves. If we choose to walk in them, by the power of the grace provided, the Lord provides more.

We won’t be judged by the amount or quality of our faith. We will be judged by the type of person that we have become as evidence by our works. (2 Corinthians 3:18;2 Corinthians 4:18).
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
the real question is why Christian ...

Nope, that is NOT "the real question".
At least not in this forum, where discussion of Christianity is OFF-TOPIC.

He said His baptism was necessary “to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

Again, you seem to have great difficulty paying attention, and remembering what the question actually was. The question was where does the BIBLE teach that OUR baptism is necessary?

Especially if CHRIST's baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Paul taught “for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” (Romans 2:13) Paul here is referring to the “law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2),

Sorry, you are simply wrong.
Paul is most definitely referring to the law of Moses here.
There's nothing in the text to even SUGGEST He is referring to a "law of Christ".

Paul's point is that the Jews thought they were God's special chosen, simply because He chose them to receive the Law. But Paul is pointing out that you not only have to "hear" the Law for it to have any benefit, but you also have to DO what it says.

And then when you get to that point, you discover (as Paul writes a little later) that NOBODY can keep the Mosaic Law, which is WHY we need Christ and the gospel.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom. 3:21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law,

Are you SURE "law" refers to "the law of Christ"? So righteousness is apart from Christ?!

although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Funny how Paul doesn't use the wording, "law of Christ" here, he simply points out (as he often does) that "law" is OPPOSITE of the righteousness of Christ.

For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Again, no mention of "law of Christ".

not “works of the law” The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace.

There is NOWHERE in the Bible that defines "law of Christ" as "faith in Christ and works based on grace".

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

This defines "law of Christ" as "bearing one another's burdens", and shows that it is "law" in the sense of "principle", not in the sense of "a set of works to do". Further, it does not list "faith" as part of "the law of Christ".

You seem to just be making stuff up.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Nope, that is NOT "the real question".
At least not in this forum, where discussion of Christianity is OFF-TOPIC.

Chuckle.. the rest of the context was " fail to understand Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost and all other covenants and ordinances Christ taught.

Of course you don't discuss our differences... it's so easy to make excuses so as not to be embarrassed about your own doctrine. God has chosen you... hence you did not choose God...

Again, you seem to have great difficulty paying attention, and remembering what the question actually was. The question was where does the BIBLE teach that OUR baptism is necessary?

Especially if CHRIST's baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".

Awe, I see where you're going with this... since Christ did it all, even baptism by water, everyone else in excluded from this other then maybe it be a symbolic gesture... very good Theo... you actually have found away around this very studiously and purpose in mind... hmm
 
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