Covenantbreakers

Mesenja

Well-known member
These verses teach about the eternal significance of obedience.

D&C 130:20–21


20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predica

1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia, 2 chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
God's grace is surely a blessing. There are zero blessings that don't need to be earned in Mormonism.
Yes, by His grace we are saved... also, we all will be judged as to our obedience of all his commandments and covenants we make...
Baptism is when we first covenant with God... to keep his commandment that we may always have his spirit to be with us..


The Final Judgment
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.… Rev 20
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Mormonism teaches that every blessing must be earned.

Janice--you believe whatever you want--but that has been addressed several times--and it just isn't a truthful accusation. Anyone who has been LDS would know the LDS believe God the Son died for the sins of the whole world and offered the Resurrection--as a free gift to all men. No faith nor obedience required. Christ alone. Jesus Christ conquered death and hell--as it relates to the Fall--for all men. Free gift.

Please accept that:

Romans 5:18--King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men, Janice. "came upon"--past tense. Free gift.

That's LDS theology, and being LDS once--you should know that.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Mormonism teaches that every blessing must be earned.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Revelation 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned.” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 304–5.)

The atonement purchased the eternal life of those who have faith in Christ's blood. However, Mormon leaders teach that it gives you an opportunity to earn eternal life. If you say that is false, you are the one who doesn't know Mormonism.


President Kimbal does not employ the word earn to make the argument for strict merit. You can never give to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give.


But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans11:6)

The word earned was used to categorize those who respond positively to the grace God freely offers with love, faith and obedience "relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save."(2 Nephi 31:19) God is the one who provides us with grace preparing us to respond with gratitude and good works. If we choose to walk in the Spirit and not by the flesh more enabling grace is provided. They have earned or merit through their behaviour or action blessings from God for the law they were obedient to upon which the blessing was predicated. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21) We can only do supernaturally good works by the assistance of actual and sanctifying grace, which God is pleased to reward, but we don't strictly deserve nor are owed. Here is a formula for salvation from the blog curtis e schulz to which I hold to. I have modified it slightly changing obedience to mean covenant keeping.

Belief in Jesus as Messiah + Repentance + Obedience in keeping covenants = Faith = Salvation.

Will everyone be judged by their works? Yes. Will there be a list of works and requirements that must be fulfilled? No. God has no need for our good works. They are strictly for our benefit. By the transformative power of God's grace, we have the opportunity to be transformed into His likeness throughout our lives, but only if we respond to His grace with works done through grace.
 

John t

Super Member
... There is none. Your (sic) welcome.

Where are the Scriptural proofs for the plates?

Where are the Scriptural proofs for anything in the Book of Mormon?

Where are the Scriptural proofs for the Book of Abraham?

Where are the Scriptural proofs for the Nephites, or the Lamanites or the Gadianton robbers?

We could play that sort of game you are attempting to play with us, but you Mormons will lose every time that we bring up questions such as those above. Simply put your "testimony stating that you know such-and-such to be is true" is nothing more than unmitigated humbug.
 

John t

Super Member
President Kimbal does not employ the word earn to make the argument for strict merit. You can never give to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give.

Who cares what your President Kimbal or any other TBM says when your own "holy book" clearly states: it is by grace that we are saved, "AFTER ALL WE CAN DO” (2 Nephi 25:23)

What you are doing is making a red herring to distract from the true issue: "what does the BoM say"? We are onto those sorts of Mormo-shenanigans, and we will not take the bait of a logical fallacy.
 
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Mesenja

Well-known member
Who cares what your President Kimbal or any other TBM says when your own "holy book" clearly states: it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23) What you are doing is making a red herring to distracting fthe true issue: "what does the Book of Mormon say"? We are onto those sorts of Mormo-shenanigans, and we will not take the bait of a logical fallacy.

Janice Bowers cares enough about what President Kimball said as she quoted him.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Where are the Scriptural proofs for the plates Where are the Scriptural proofs for anything in the Book of Mormon? Where are the Scriptural proofs for the Book of Abraham? Where are the Scriptural proofs for the Nephites, or the Lamanites or the Gadianton robbers?We could play that sort of game you are attempting to play with us, but you Mormons will lose every time that we bring up questions such as those above. Simply put your "testimony stating that you know such-and-such to be is true" is nothing more than unmitigated humbug.

Humbug? LOL Ok Ebeneezer sorry you’re having a bad day today.
 

John t

Super Member
Janice Bowers cares enough about what President Kimball said as she quoted him.

To quote the philosopher Shaniah Twain, "That don't impress me much."

Nevertheless, your lack of not addressing what I posted demonstrates that you will most likely not do so in the future. You play your rhetorical games, and we call you out on them.

You cannot make a cogent defense of what your scriptures plainly state. Your "Mormo-salvation" as well as your Mormo-grace" are simply "pay checks" for your deeds well done, and THAT is contrary to what the Bible plainly states.
 
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Janice Bower

Well-known member
To quote the philosopher Shaniah Twain, "That don't impress me much."

Nevertheless, your lack of not addressing what I posted demonstrates that you will most likely not do so in the future. You play your rhetorical games, and we call you out on them.

You cannot make a cogent defense of what your scriptures plainly state. Your "Mormo-salvation" as well as your Mormo-grace" are simply "pay checks" for your deeds well done, and THAT is contrary to what the Bible states.
mesenja is playing the dishonest Mormon game. I quote Mormon leaders because the ones who come here behave like " in good standing." I'm not done quoting directly from Mormons. I spent many years in that cult.
 

John t

Super Member
.......... dishonest Mormon game

That is begging the question of the existence of "honest Mormon games"

The fact of the matter is that it is akin to the existence of domesticated elephants in the Western Hemisphere. The BoM says that they were "very useful" but natural history places that concept on the level of "crypto biology" and of unicorns
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
To quote the philosopher Shaniah Twain, "That don't impress me much."

Nevertheless, your lack of not addressing what I posted demonstrates that you will most likely not do so in the future. You play your rhetorical games, and we call you out on them.

You cannot make a cogent defense of what your scriptures plainly state. Your "Mormo-salvation" as well as your Mormo-grace" are simply "pay checks" for your deeds well done, and THAT is contrary to what the Bible plainly states.

What has scriptural proofs for the plates, scriptural proofs for anything in the Book of Mormon, scriptural proofs for the Book of Abraham, or scriptural proofs for the Nephites, or the Lamanites or the Gadianton robbers to do with my response to the post by Janice Bower?
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Is today's Mormonism actually apostate or is it only mesenja's version that is apostate?

It doesn't matter. If it were true to begin with, it wouldn't need to change several times.


Keep the Commandments
By President Thomas S. Monson
He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible.
God’s commandments are not given to frustrate us or to become obstacles to our happiness. Just the opposite is true. He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible. He has provided us with guidelines which, if we follow them, will see us safely through this often treacherous mortal journey. We remember the words of the familiar hymn: “Keep the commandments! In this there is safety; in this there is peace.”1

Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to say: Thou shalt not lie; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; and so on.2 We know the commandments. He understands that when we keep the commandments, our lives will be happier, more fulfilling, and less complicated. Our challenges and problems will be easier to bear, and we will receive His promised blessings. But while He gives us laws and commandments, He also allows us to choose whether to accept them or to reject them. Our decisions in this regard will determine our destiny.

- General Conference 2015

(D-5) Our Relationship to Christ

Through the atonement of Christ, salvation is extended to every son and daughter of God. The responsibility rests upon each individual to repent, to believe in Christ, and then to endure faithfully to the end (see D&C 20:29).The Savior’s atonement, combined with a willing obedience to his gospel, qualifies one to become his son or daughter (see D&C 39:4-6; 11:30; 25:1).

"son and daughter of God" refers to spirit children of Heavenly Father

"obedience to his gospel, qualifies one to become his son or daughter" refers to being adopted by Christ


Thus by keeping all commandments pertaining to his gospel, one may receive the power and attributes of Christ in ourself and become his son or daughter.



God has said that no one can come unto him except by his laws. If one receives and obeys his laws, then he will come to know God and become like him, thus having eternal life. (See D&C 132: 11-12, 21-25, 32: John 17:3). It is only by obedience to law that one can become sanctified. Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved,, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Savior through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each individual must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom he inherits(see D&C 88:21-24; 34-35).
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 394-395
 

John t

Super Member
What has scriptural proofs for the plates, scriptural proofs for anything in the Book of Mormon, scriptural proofs for the Book of Abraham, or scriptural proofs for the Nephites, or the Lamanites or the Gadianton robbers to do with my response to the post by Janice Bower?

And my response to her was commenting on the foundation of lies upon which Mormonism is founded.
Smith was a liar, con man, swindler etc.
There is nothing in the BoM corresponding to reality.
In your "Testimony meetings, you guys and gals engage in a form of self-hypnosis in order to perpetuate the BoM is true because every testimony ends with variations on these words, "I know that the BoM is true because..."

I know that the poster Janice Bower is an ex-mo for she stated that several times on these boards. Thus, it is not my problem that you are unable to see my intent in that post, or are you simply playing the same, insipid mormo-games that you play with Bonnie and Theo, trying to pit one against the other?

That will not work with Janice Bower and myself, also. We are aware of your tactics, dude.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
We are justified before God by grace alone. We are not justified through our obedience. We are not justified through our works. We are not justified through our faith.
Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved,, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Savior through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each individual must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom he inherits(see D&C 88:21-24; 34-35).
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 395
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Keep the Commandments
By President Thomas S. Monson
He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible.
God’s commandments are not given to frustrate us or to become obstacles to our happiness. Just the opposite is true. He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible. He has provided us with guidelines which, if we follow them, will see us safely through this often treacherous mortal journey. We remember the words of the familiar hymn: “Keep the commandments! In this there is safety; in this there is peace.”1

Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to say: Thou shalt not lie; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; and so on.2 We know the commandments. He understands that when we keep the commandments, our lives will be happier, more fulfilling, and less complicated. Our challenges and problems will be easier to bear, and we will receive His promised blessings. But while He gives us laws and commandments, He also allows us to choose whether to accept them or to reject them. Our decisions in this regard will determine our destiny.

- General Conference 2015

Could you--or anyone else-- explain the difference between that testimony--and the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved,, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Savior through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each individual must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom he inherits(see D&C 88:21-24; 34-35). Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 395

Belief in Jesus as Messiah + Repentance + Obedience (Keeping Covenants) = Faith = Salvation
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Is today's Mormonism actually apostate or is it only Mesenja’s version that is apostate? It doesn't matter. If it were true to begin with, it wouldn't need to change several times.

Keep the Commandments
By President Thomas S. Monson
He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible.
God’s commandments are not given to frustrate us or to become obstacles to our happiness. Just the opposite is true. He who created us and who loves us perfectly knows just how we need to live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible. He has provided us with guidelines which, if we follow them, will see us safely through this often treacherous mortal journey. We remember the words of the familiar hymn: “Keep the commandments! In this there is safety; in this there is peace.”1

Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to say: Thou shalt not lie; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; and so on.2 We know the commandments. He understands that when we keep the commandments, our lives will be happier, more fulfilling, and less complicated. Our challenges and problems will be easier to bear, and we will receive His promised blessings. But while He gives us laws and commandments, He also allows us to choose whether to accept them or to reject them. Our decisions in this regard will determine our destiny. - General Conference 2015

(D-5) Our Relationship to Christ
Through the atonement of Christ, salvation is extended to every son and daughter of God. The responsibility rests upon each individual to repent, to believe in Christ, and then to endure faithfully to the end (see D&C 20:29).The Savior’s atonement, combined with a willing obedience to his gospel, qualifies one to become his son or daughter (see D&C 39:4-6; 11:30; 25:1).

"son and daughter of God" refers to spirit children of Heavenly Father

"obedience to his gospel, qualifies one to become his son or daughter" refers to being adopted by Christ


Thus by keeping all commandments pertaining to his gospel, one may receive the power and attributes of Christ in ourself and become his son or daughter.
God has said that no one can come unto him except by his laws. If one receives and obeys his laws, then he will come to know God and become like him, thus having eternal life. (See D&C 132: 11-12, 21-25, 32: John 17:3). It is only by obedience to law that one can become sanctified. Those who, by their agency, submit to law and are governed by God’s laws are preserved,, protected, and sanctified through the operation of those laws. Those who do not live the laws of God cannot be sanctified by the Saviour through those laws; therefore, they must inherit a kingdom other than the celestial. Each individual must be able to abide by the law of the kingdom he inherits(see D&C 88:21-24; 34-35).
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 394-395

What you just posted aligns perfectly with the formula for salvation I previously posted. You have to understand that every time a General Authority speaks it is not incumbent upon him to give a full exposition of the doctrine of salvation. The emphasis here is on obedience. This fact does not in anyway prove that I stand in opposition to the Church.

Belief in Jesus as Messiah + Repentance + Obedience (Covenant Keeping) = Faith = Salvation


I’ve listed 10 talking points from the sources you posted. How does any of this disagree with the formula for salvation I gave? (see above) What exactly do you disagree with here?

1. Our lives will be happier if we keep the commandments.
2. God knows how we ought to live our live our lives in order to obtain the greatest happiness possible.
3. God has provided us with guidelines which if we follow them will guide us safely through life.
4. God‘s commandments are not given to frustrate us or be obstacles to our happiness.
5. If we keep the commandments our lives will be happier,more fulfilling and less complicated.
6. If we keep the commandments our challenges and problems will be easier to bear, and we will receive His promised blessings.
7. If we receive and obey God’s laws, then we will come to know God and become like him, thus having eternal life.
8. The responsibility rests upon each individual to repent, to believe in Christ, and then to endure faithfully to the end.
9. No one can come to God except by receiving and obeying his laws.
10. It is only by obedience to law that one may come to God.
 
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