Covenantbreakers

Mesenja

Well-known member
Mesenja,

Of course not, that is exactly my point of my argument, and I agree with Theo's response to you with Romans 3:23

What is more, consider James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

So, are you LDS, and what is your point?


RCM
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Yes I am LDS. Why are Latter day Saints expected to keep every commandment flawlessly in order to be saved?
 

organgrinder

Super Member
`
Yes I am LDS. Why are Latter day Saints expected to keep every commandment flawlessly in order to be saved?
Yes. Yours is a works based salvation. One of your own harps constantly on the need to keep the commandments. Here is just one example quoted just today on CARM in "Keeping the commandments and LDS theology".

Bonnie said:

Why won't you give a direct answer, dberrie? Does God REQUIRE the building of Mormon temples and its works, in order to be saved?


Yes--and the rest of His commandments:

That is why RCM quoted James 2:10 to you. Stumble in one point-- guilty of all. You must keep all the commandments flawlessly to be saved in your religion. That is not salvation by faith, but by works.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Yes. Yours is a works based salvation. One of your own harps constantly on the need to keep the commandments.

Yes contrary to Jesus Christ who taught it was optional to keep the commandments.

Here is just one example quoted just today on CARM in "Keeping the commandments and LDS theology".

Bonnie said:

Why won't you give a direct answer, Dberrie? Does God REQUIRE the building of Mormon temples and its works, in order to be saved?

Yes--and the rest of His commandments:

Sorry what was this an example of again?

That is why RCM quoted James 2:10 to you. Stumble in one point-- guilty of all. You must keep all the commandments flawlessly to be saved in your religion. That is not salvation by faith, but by works.

Where is it taught in the Bible that you have to keep the commandments flawlessly?
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Stumble in one point-- guilty of all.
thus we are all in need of Grace or no one can be saved. James also makes it very clear that one can talk all day about how saved they are, but in the end, if what they do does not match what they claim they believe, they are hypocrites and will not be able to find their way to heaven's gates.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
thus we are all in need of Grace or no one can be saved. James also makes it very clear that one can talk all day about how saved they are, but in the end, if what they do does not match what they claim they believe, they are hypocrites and will not be able to find their way to heaven's gates.
This is true. But to clarify, the good deeds of love FOLLOW a true and living faith....they are the RESULT of faith....it isn't just talk but action...so would you answer this question for us? IS the faith that enables a person to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior a living or dead faith?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. [I will ease and relieve and refresh your souls.] — MATTHEW 11:28

When we become so burned out, heavy-laden, and overburdened that we feel we are unable to take it anymore, what are we to do? Jesus said, Come to Me.… But what are we to do when we come to Him?

We are to come to Him to receive!

If we ask and ask and keep on asking and never receive, then we become frustrated. That's what happens in Mormonism. But Jesus wants us to have joy. One of the major reasons we do not receive is that what has been provided for us is free, and we keep trying to do something to earn it. The Mormon teaching of "After all we can do" just doesn't fly In the light what Jesus has already done!

Jesus has already paid the price. The New Covenant is according to grace. It is based on the goodness of God and the work Jesus has already accomplished — not on our merit or works.

To get is “to acquire as a result of action or effort.”

1 To receive is “to acquire or take (something given, offered, or transmitted).…”

2 When we get something, we obtain it by struggle or effort(After all we can do). When we receive something, we obtain it by acting as a receptacle and taking in what someone else is offering.

Receive what Jesus is pouring out. Come into His presence and drink of His forgiveness, His love, His mercy and grace. Lay aside the false belief you may have that somehow Mormonism can save you. It can't everything you need is available in Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible — start receiving!

Try This:
Enter into God’s rest and receive what has already been poured out. You will be rested, refreshed, revived, restored, and refilled, and set free from Mormonism.
 

RCM

Active member
Since you have fallen short of the glory of God and sinned will you still be saved?

Mesenja,

I was saved by placing my faith in Jesus and asking for forgiveness and being born again, I was saved by God's grace, not my works.

You are the one who should be answering your own question.

You have no hope underneath Mormon law and doctrine, your only hope is to turn to the Biblical Jesus for salvation by Grace.


RCM
 

RCM

Active member
Still no answer then to my question can you sin and still be saved.

Here's 2 more questions.

1. What is the purpose and need for repentance?
2. What is the purpose of the sacrament?

Mesenja,

Let us answer your questions first from Mormon Scripture

1. Can you sin and still be saved? Mormon Scripture says No! (D&C 82:7; D&C 88:22; Alma 11:37)
2. What is the purpose and need for repentance? Mormon Doctrine defines it as the forsaking of all sin, Mormon Scripture is Moroni 10:32
3. What is the purpose of the sacrament? Mormon Doctrine defines it as reaffirming the covenant made at baptism No Mormon Scripture


Now let me answer this from a Biblical position

1. Can you sin and still be saved? A Born again believer (John 3) has been saved by grace and not works (Ephesians 2:8-9) by the sacrificial death and blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:8; 1 John 1:7) and when I sin I need to acknowledge it repent of it so that my personal relationship, fellowship, and walk with Jesus is not hindered (John 13:5-10; 1 John 1:9) my eternal salvation cannot be lost because it is based upon Jesus' works not my works (Romans 11:6; John 10:28-29).

2. What is the purpose and need for repentance? Repentance is acknowledging that you are lost in sin, turn from that sin to Jesus for forgiveness and trust Him for eternal life (Luke 24:47; John 5:24).

3. What is the purpose of communion? Most Biblical Christians do not refer to communion as sacrament, the purpose of communion is to worship the Lord Jesus and praise Him and the Father for the sacrificial gift of His death on the Cross, that He died in my place and that His body
was broken and His blood was shed so that I might believe and be saved by faith based upon His work on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.



Mesenja, you can clearly see the difference is night and day, Mormonism is darkness with no hope and Biblical faith in Jesus is the light!



RCM
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.

I don't see anything there about works or "after all we can do".

I love how John’s Gospel brings Jesus within reach of everyone. Jesus describes himself as ‘the light of the world’, ‘the real bread’ and ‘the water of life’.

These are pictures which make immediate sense to Christians — and yet Mormonism would like us to be sidetracked and believe is necessary to perform some ritual or do some work of righteousness to get that real bread.

Best of all, Jesus says, ‘I am’—which means his life and work are what brings us into the presence and ministry of almighty God.

Also Jesus says,

I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry (John 6:35).

He doesn't say if you want to come to me make sure you grow some grain and bake some bread.

 

RCM

Active member
I sense that we're about to be entertained by a whole slew of laws and commandments that we're not keeping. :rolleyes:

Are you a covenantbreaker according to Mormon Doctrine and Scripture? Yes


Each Sunday do you reaffirm your covenant taken at Baptism? Yes
The word "all" is not issued in a vacuum. Specifically, it does not mean that you or anyone else gets to pick what falls within that realm.
Sounds like conviction to me

That may be what you believe, but it's not what we believe. God the Father, just like Jesus, His Son, never sinned. But both were once mortal men, the same as we mortal, i.e. They could die, feel pain and joy, be cut and bleed, eat and drink, etc... none of which are sins.

What a mess you make of your argument, first you say Father is like Jesus and they never sinned.

Then you say that both were once mortal men, the same as you. I got news for you brotherofJared, you are a fallen sinful person, so your god was once just like you, you have said it, Joseph Smith said it, the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony says it.

The Mormon god is nothing but a fallen sinful man who progressed to godhood, nothing but glorified humanity, and cannot compare to the True Divine Living God of the Bible.

I was wrong as I stated in the beginning. This wasn't entertaining. It wasn't even a coherent argument. He starts out making the claim that we have to do everything perfectly (or that we teach that) and then ends by pointing out that we don't have to and doesn't support either argument. :rolleyes:

Your religion through doctrine, scripture, and its leaders clearly state you must do everything perfectly and I have posted plenty of support for that argument, and the last part of your sentence is completely in error.


RC<
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
organgrinder said:
Yours is a works based salvation.
And so is yours. You all are in denial. No one who turns against Christ or rejects his teachings is worthy of heaven and cannot be saved. That's works based salvation whether you like it or not.

You are confused.

Nobody is "turning against Christ".
Nobody is "rejecting [Christ's] teachings".

Simply recognizing that our works don't contribute to our salvation is NOT "turning against Christ.

We DO works.
We DO obey Christ.
We simply recognize the works we do, do NOT contribute to our salvation.

YOU are the one "rejecting" the teachings of the Bible.

That's why you will NEVER answer:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

What does Paul say in Rom. 4:5 about "the one who does NOT work"?

What does "APART from works" in Rom. 4:6 mean?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And so is yours. You all are in denial. No one who turns against Christ or rejects his teachings is worthy of heaven and cannot be saved. That's works based salvation whether you like it or not.
That is false. And not one of us Christians here has turned against the TRUE Jesus Christ of the Bible! Nor have we rejected HIS teachings! It is the FALSE Jesus and FALSE teachings of the LDS church we categorically turn against and reject!
 

John t

Super Member
`
Yes I am LDS. Why are Latter day Saints expected to keep every commandment flawlessly in order to be saved?
Because that what your leaders and "mo-pologists here on CARM tell us that you believe. Besides that we have these:

The Book of Mormon makes it clear that Mormons only receive grace after they do all they can do.
In the Book of 2 Nephi 25:23 it says: (emphasis added)
"for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Moroni 10:32 is the IF...THEN statement for grace: (emphasis added)
"... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you"

The LDS published "Bible Dictionary" defines grace as:
"grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

from http://www.afterallwecando.com/
 

John t

Super Member
How are your proof texts evidence that we have to keep the commandments faultlessly?

I presume that you are replying to me. If not, please correct.

You said it, not me
Mesenja said:`
Yes I am LDS. Why are Latter day Saints expected to keep every commandment flawlessly in order to be saved?

All I did is cut and paste the stuff in the BoM that agrees with you.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
I presume that you are replying to me. If not, please correct. You said it, not me.

You presumed correctly I was responding to your post and yes I asked the question.

Can you now please explain to me how your proof texts support your position that we have to keep all the commandments flawlessly.

All I did is cut and paste the stuff in the Book of Mormon that agrees with you.

Yes but you never explained how this supports your position that we have to keep all the commandments flawlessly.
 
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