Covenantbreakers

If Paul's teachings in Romans 2 (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is literal then there has to be two types of works or else he would be contradicting himself.

If we're not sure about Paul's teaching, and are concerned that he might be "contradicting himself", it might be an idea to study MORE of Paul's teachings, to get a more INFORMED understanding.

How about we study the FOLLOWING?:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;


Why is "Romans 2" the ONLY passage by Paul that you care about, and that you want to throw all the rest of Paul's writings in the trash?
 
Okay... Let's see what you've done so far...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You addressed the portion bolded in black, but you IGNORED the part I've got in red. For MONTHS you've IGNORED the part in red, "not of works".

For some bizarre reason, your mind interprets "not of works" as allegedly meaning "works ARE required".

Paul was not saying that we don’t have to do good works to be saved. Rather, he was saying that we don’t have to do “the works of the the Law" to be saved.

The “works” that we are required to do for our salvation are the good works mentioned in verse 10 made possible through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet that faith by itself does not itself save us. It only allows for God's grace and loving kindness to make us into new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
 
So you are basically admitting that you are ASSUMING "two kinds of works", based on your UNDERSTANDING of the meaning of the passage (which could be right or wrong).

I am taking the position that Paul's teachings in Romans 2 (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is to be taking literally not hypothetically.

Do you consider yourself infallible? Or do you admit that your understanding could be wrong?

Where does Paul claim anywhere in Romans 2 that his teaching (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is hypothetical?
 
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Paul was not saying that we don’t have to do good works to be saved. Rather, he was saying that we don’t have to do “the works of the the Law" to be saved.

Sorry, but Eph. 2 does NOT say "works of the law".
Sorry, but Tit. 3:5 does NO Say "works of the law".
Sorry, but 2 Tim. 1:9 does NO Say "works of the law".
Sorry, but Rom. 11:5-6 does NO Say "works of the law".

You can't simply ADD to Scripture to CHANGE the meaning to try to force it to fit your false theology.

If Paul had wanted to say "no by the LAW in Eph. 2, he could have.
He DIDN'T.
If Paul had wanted to say "no by the LAW in Tit. 2:13, he could have.
He DIDN'T.
If Paul had wanted to say "no by the LAW in 2 Tim. 1:9, he could have.
He DIDN'T.
If Paul had wanted to say "no by the LAW in Rom. 11:5-6, he could have.
He DIDN'T.


You don't get to ALTER Paul's letters.

The “works” that we are required to do for our salvation are the good works mentioned in verse 10 made possible through faith in Jesus Christ.

Wrong again.
Eph. 2:10 works are no "required" for salvation, they come AFTER our salvation.

Yet that faith by itself does not itself save us. It only allows for God's grace and loving kindness to make us into new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

This does NOT say that faith "only" makes us new creations.
This does NOT say that faith doesn't save us.
 
Jesus is commanding those who already believe in Him. They obey IN faith, IN salvation.

John 15:5-6,9-10

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.
 
Sorry, but Ephesians 2 does NOT say "works of the law".

Ephesians 2:13-16

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
 
Ephesians 2:13-16

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Where does this say that Eph. 2:9 refers "only to the Law", and that there are other "works" one must do?

Again, Eph. 2:9 says, "Not by WORKS", not "not by the LAW".
Paul means what he says.
You're not allowed to CHANGE what Paul said.
 
If Paul's teachings in Romans 2 (that those who do good works will be justified and receive eternal life) is literal then there has to be two types of works or else he would be contradicting himself.
IF you would tell me in your own words what it means to be CREATED IN Jesus Christ, you might understand what Paul is getting at.

There are basically 2 types of works--works of the Law and works of righteousness--Paul makes it clear that neither saves us.
 
Where does this say that Ephesians 2:9 refers "only to the Law", and that there are other "works" one must do? Again, Ephesians 2:9 says, "Not by WORKS", not "not by the LAW". Paul means what he says. You're not allowed to CHANGE what Paul said.

The rest of Ephesians is all about Paul exhorting them to be unified in Christ, repent of all their evil works and do good works instead. If Paul taught that all that was required for salvation was faith then what was the necessity for all of this?
 
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If we're not sure about Paul's teaching, and are concerned that he might be "contradicting himself", it might be an idea to study MORE of Paul's teachings, to get a more INFORMED understanding.

I'm not in the least bit concerned that Paul contradicted himself.

Why is "Romans 2" the ONLY passage by Paul that you care about, and that you want to throw all the rest of Paul's writings in the trash?

I accept all of Paul's teachings.
 
The rest of Ephesians is all about Paul exhorting them to the unified in Christ, repent of all their evil works and do good works instead.

Correct.
But not "FOR" salvation.
That is your ASSUMPTION.

If Paul taught that all that was required for salvation was faith then what was the necessity for all of this?

You see, this is the proof that your entire theology is based on "rationalization", rather than on Scripture. You ask a self-serving rhetorical question, assume that there is "no necessity for all of this", and then ASSUME that works are "required" for salvation, contrary to the Bible.

In the meantime, you are STILL running away from:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

If Paul taught that all that was required for salvation was faith then what was the necessity for all of this?

What saith SCRIPTURE?
You see, you absolutely LOVE Rom. 2, but you hate Rom. 3, you hate Rom. 4, you hate Rom. 5, you hate Rom. 6, you hate Rom. 8, you hate Rom. 9, you hate Rom. 11.

Read this:

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We don't do good works to "be saved".
We don't do good works to "stay saved".


We do good works to GLORIFY GOD.

We do good works, because God is our Lord, and we obey Him, gladly.
 
No I don't think you do get it.

Matthew 12:36

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Wow... That is a verse that YOU need to memorize and meditate upon.
Just sayin'.
 
Paul was not saying that we don’t have to do good works to be saved. Rather, he was saying that we don’t have to do “the works of the the Law" to be saved.

The “works” that we are required to do for our salvation are the good works mentioned in verse 10 made possible through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet that faith by itself does not itself save us. It only allows for God's grace and loving kindness to make us into new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Wrong. NO works are required ...period. Ephesians 2:8-10 doesn't say what you want it to say. Here is the text:



For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph. 2:8-10 NKJV)

Now pay close attention here to the definition of the word "through" in the Strong's Concordance.

PC Study Bible Data
NT:1223



NT:1223 ‎dia/ ‎dia (dee-ah'); a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):


KJV - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause). ..fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

In other words, we are saved by grace BECAUSE OF faith.

We are saved by grace ON ACCOUNT OF faith.

We are saved by grace BY REASON OF faith

We are saved by grace BY OCCASION OF faith.

See how that happens? What is the role of faith here? And what is the role of works?

Works are not in the salvation equation no matter how much you and your church try to make it so.
 
Sorry, but Ephesians 2 does NOT say "works of the law".

It also doesn't specifically state that we are saved by faith alone either. What it does state three times without any ambiguity is that we are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—

Ephesians 3:12

12 in whom we have access to God in boldness and confidence through faith in him.

Ephesians 3:17

17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love.

The Scriptures speak of our salvation in 3 tenses and senses.

We Have Been Saved. (Past)

1 Corinthians 6:11

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We Are Being Saved. (Present)

2 Corinthians 2:15

15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

We Shall Be Saved. (Future)

Romans 5:9-10

9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life

Paul told the Ephesians who were once "dead in the trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) that this initial salvation was not obtained either by their own good works or works of the Law.

Ephesians 2

8 And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works.

He differentiates between works done under the auspices of God's grace "which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10) and those works done without the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


We cannot obtain final salvation without any of the required works that produce “fruit” for God. It is God's will that Christians do works to produce the fruits that God expects to see.


Matthew 12:50

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

John 15:2

2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


Sorry, but Titus 3:5 does NO Say "works of the law".

Titus 3:5 is referencing our initial salvation. We are saved by God's grace and not by any good works we have done for, there were no such works in existence.

Sorry, but 2 Timothy 1:9 does NOT say "works of the law".

Yes I agree that God "saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:9) I never made the argument that I can earn my salvation by my own works.

Colossians 1:29

29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

Philippians 2:13

13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

John 15:5

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Sorry, but Romans 11:5-6 does NOT Say "works of the law.

I fully agree that if salvation were to come by our own works, done apart fron faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favor, but a debt. All those who do works done with God's grace are promised eternal salvation.
 
Paul was not saying that we don’t have to do good works to be saved. Rather, he was saying that we don’t have to do “the works of the the Law" to be saved.

The “works” that we are required to do for our salvation are the good works mentioned in verse 10 made possible through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet that faith by itself does not itself save us. It only allows for God's grace and loving kindness to make us into new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
I know. I point this out over and over and they still don't get it. They judge the scripture on only a few words and even then, those words are taken out of context.
 
Wrong. NO works are required ...period.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Here we go with the "because I say so" argument. And the hypocrisy here reeks. They claim that NO works are required but at the same time will admit that an unrepentant murderer cannot inherit heaven. Then quote that he who commits the least sin is guilty of all sins. And then claims that no works are required. This is nonsense.

If what you do will keep you out of heaven, then works are required - especially if they can keep you out of heaven, such as the unrepentant murderer or adulterer or bubble gum thief.
 
Ephesians 2:8-10 doesn't say what you want it to say
Ephesians 2:8-10 doesn't say what you want it to say.
Now pay close attention here
Now pay close attention to the words here:
created in Christ Jesus for good works
If one is not walking in good works, they are not created in Christ. It's that simple. You get stuck on a word "through". That's absolutely stupefying.
NT:1223 ‎dia/ ‎dia (dee-ah'); a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):
Your argument is even stupefying. What "channel of an act" would demonstrate our faith? Could it be good works?

Clearly, there are some works that have no power to demonstrate this faith. Where do you get the idea that he means "any" works? What word do you want to focus on that would demonstrate that non-existent word in the text?
 
The Challenge to Become
Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.
 
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