ok. if you are not claiming the passage teaches God created people to be hated and destined for hell, then it is not a refutation of what I said. So it is a sidetrack.
First, I'd like to point out that some posters here are unwilling to offer a theology to believe, and to support it from Scripture. All they want to do is hide behind a corner and throw pot shots at what anyone else says. So let's suppose these people "proved" Calvinism false. What then? They have no alternative theology to offer. They simply want their theology to win by "default". They believe others have to "prove" their theology from Scripture, but they don't have to prove THEIR theology from Scripture.
But, since this poster clearly doesn't understand the meaning of Rom. 9 (I've asked him many times to share his understanding, and he is unable to do so), I guess I'll have to explain it him.
Rom. 9:9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Okay, here we see Paul talking about Rebekah and the twins, and pointing out that God's "election" occurred before the twins were born, or before they had done anything, "good or bad".
So God's election is NOT based on "foreseen actions", or "foreseen decisions", since Paul explicitly DENIES that it was based on anything the twins did, and made the argument that their election was before they were born.
And then he says that God had chosen, before the twins were born, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".
Please note that it doesn't say that God hated "things" Esau did, or "decisions" Esau made. It says He hated ESAU himself. And if you want to deny that God hated Esau, then you would have to likewise deny that God loved Jacob, since they are parallel passages.
Rom. 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
What this is basically saying is, "I give mercy to whoever I want, and I will have compassion on whoever I want." Remember, we just saw that God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau before they were ever born, not based on ANYTHING they had done. Paul is simply expanding on this.
So God's mercy does not depend on what we do ("human will or exertion"),
but solely on God.
Rom. 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
He then brings up the example of Pharaoh, where God's purpose in creating Pharaoh was to have His (God's) name proclaimed throughout the Earth. God arranged the whole thing, from having Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery in Egypt (Gen. 50:20), to the famine, to bringing Joseph's family back to Egypt to save them from the famine, to hardening Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let the Jews go, to give God opportunity to perform all his plague miracles, and then parting the Red Sea to allow the Jews to finally escape.
All to proclaim the glory of God!
And Paul reiterates the idea of God "having mercy on whomever he wants", just as God "hardens whomever He wills". This reminds us of God hardening Pharaoh's heart every time Moses asked to let the people go, each refusal resulting in the opportunity to perform yet another plague miracle.
God has mercy on whom He wills ("Jacob I loved"),
and God hardens whomever He wants ("Esau I hated").
All before we were ever born (ie. election, cf. Eph. 1:4ff).
Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
And Paul expects his readers to come up with this objection, he's probably heard it many times before. "God can do whatever He wants". "But that's not FAIR!!!!!! Waaaaaahhhhh!!!"
But God is God.
He can do whatever He wants, as Creator of the universe.
Just like a sculptor can make a sculpture any way HE wants.
God is the "molder".
We are the "molded".
God is the "potter".
We are the "clay".
And as the Potter, He can make us any way He wants. He can "have compassion" for us, or He can "harden" us.
And it is important to note that while God is making "vessels of honour" and "vessels of dishonour", he makes each from the SAME LUMP of clay. So the difference in the vessels ("honour" vs. "dishonour") is not based on the clay, but is based on the Potter's intention.
Rom. 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
It would be sufficient for God (through Paul) to simply teach us that He does this. But He does more, he explains to us WHY He has hardened some and shown compassion to others.
Noticed that Not only has God prepared "vessels of wrath" (= "vessels of dishonour"), but they were prepared "FOR DESTRUCTION" (ie. "destined for hell"). And the reason He created them "for destruction" was to:
- "show his wrath";
- "make known his power";
- demonstrated "much patience" (in not smiting the vessels of dishonour upon their first sin, but allowing them to live full lives before meeting their destiny);
- "make known the riches of his glory" for us, the "vessels of mercy".
And then Paul makes the point (which he started in vv. 3-6) that His people, spiritual Israel, is not the same as physical Israel. His people are those drawn out of both "Jew" and "Gentile".
And then Paul quotes Scripture (Hosea) to support his point:
Rom. 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
Rom. 9:26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
So there you go...
God hating some.
And God destining, creating them for the purpose of hell.