Daniel 11:40-45: Who are the Kings of the South and North?

Synergy

Active member
Who are the Kings of the North and South in Daniel 11:40-45?

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.
44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.
45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.
 

Arkycharlie

Super Member
That has been a mystery for me for literally decades. However, verse 41 is very familiar to me. I prefer the NASB as it is more accurate.

He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; "but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab, and the foremost of the sons of Ammon". NASB

The word translated "foremost" is the first word in the Bible, typically translated "in the beginning". It means first in rank or order. Edom is southern Jordan, Moab central Jordan, and Ammon is northern Jordan. The “foremost of the sons of Ammon” would be the King, currently Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein. I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it, but I’ve known for years that King Abdullah will eventually be revealed as the Antichrist. My wife and I toured Egypt, Jordan, and Israel in March of 2008. Below is a photo of my wife standing in front of a picture of Abdullah and his father, King Hussein. I took this and a few others of Abdullah because I knew then who he would become…..

Vera and AC.jpg
 

Synergy

Active member
To go from escaping the clutches of the powerful King of the North to becoming the world dominating AntiChrist is a bit of a stretch in my estimation. I could be terribly wrong as I am just a mortal man.

Nice picture, by the way.
 

Arkycharlie

Super Member
To go from escaping the clutches of the powerful King of the North to becoming the world dominating AntiChrist is a bit of a stretch in my estimation. I could be terribly wrong as I am just a mortal man.

Nice picture, by the way.
You tell me where the antichrist is destroyed at the Second Coming and I'll tell you where Scripture, rightly divided, tells us where the AC will arise. My question to you should be rather simple if you're a diligent student of eschatology. What I will share with you is considerably more complicated!
 

Synergy

Active member
You tell me where the antichrist is destroyed at the Second Coming and I'll tell you where Scripture, rightly divided, tells us where the AC will arise. My question to you should be rather simple if you're a diligent student of eschatology. What I will share with you is considerably more complicated!
I have very little idea as to where the AC will arise. So far, with little research on my part, I believe that the King of the South could be Erdogan's successor of the Muslim Brotherhood Coalition of Nations. The King of the North I believe will be the Leader of the Western World, namely a coalition of USA, Europe, and the Vatican. Whoever ends up being the top dog will not only be the King of the North but could very well be the AC. I have made very little research to that effect but that's what my understanding affords me.
 

Arkycharlie

Super Member
OK, let me point you in the right directions. For the answer to where the AC is dealt with, look at Isaiah 34 and 63. The answer is Edom, which is southern Jordan.

For his nationality, we go to Ezekiel 21.

24 “Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Because you have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are uncovered, so that in all your deeds your sins appear—because you have come to remembrance, you will be seized with the hand.​
25 And you, O slain, wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day has come, in the time of the punishment of the end,’​
26 thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Remove the turban and take off the crown; this will no longer be the same. Exalt that which is low and abase that which is high.​
27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin, I will make it. This also will be no more until He comes whose right it is, and I will give it to Him.’​

Ezekiel 21:25-27 is primarily concerned with the Second Coming of Messiah. Verse 25 refers to the antichrist, the last Gentile to rule over Israel. In verse 26, the turban, or mitre, is the mitre of the priest (Exodus 28:4, 37, 39; 29:6; 39:28, 31; Leviticus 8:9; 16:4) and the crown is the royal crown. Just as Genesis 49:10 uses the royal scepter to represent the authority to rule, Ezekiel uses the royal crown to represent the same thing. Then the exact same phrase is used: "until He comes who's right it is." Both priesthood and kingship are to be overthrown "until He comes who's right it is." It should be noted in passing that Ezekiel's reference to the priestly mitre indicates that Messiah will be a priest as well as a king.
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Messianic Christology, Copyright 1998, page 21.
If your Bible says "profane" rather than "slain", that is due solely to a particular inaccurate interpretation of the passage. The Hebrew word (Strongs 2491) is used 93 times in the OT and at least 98% of the time it's translated "slain". Almost always it's those slain in battle of some sort. EW Bullinger's Companion Bible lists Revelation 13:3 as across reference
28 “And you, son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD concerning the sons of Ammon and concerning their reproach,’ and say: ‘A sword, a sword is drawn, polished for the slaughter, to cause it to consume, that it may be like lightning—​
29 while they see for you false visions, while they divine lies for you—to place you on the necks of the wicked who are slain, whose day has come, in the time of the punishment of the end.​
30 Return it to its sheath. In the place where YOU were CREATED, in the land of your ORIGIN, I will judge you.
31 I will pour out My indignation on you; I will blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and I will give you into the hand of brutal men, skilled in destruction.​
32 You will be fuel for the fire; your blood will be in the midst of the land. You will not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken.’”​
Abdullah was born in Amman, Jordan. Edom is southern Jordan. Bozrah is near Petra.

Hopefully, this should get you going in the right direction!

Vera Petra.jpg
A photo that I took of my wife in Petra



 

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sk0rpi0n

Member
I’ve known for years that King Abdullah will eventually be revealed as the Antichrist.


The anti-Christ comes in place of the real Christ and Jews will accept him as the "moshiach". So it follows that the anti-Christ will be Jewish and a descendant of David, not an Arab.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Synergy,
Who are the Kings of the North and South in Daniel 11:40-45?
I understand that the King of the South was the British and allies who occupied Egypt and pushed at the Ottoman Turk in 1917. I understand that the King of the North will be Russia who will invade Turkey and then overflow and invade the Middle East. This King of the North is not the Antichrist, but the Antichrist is the Papacy in Rome, and will oppose Christ after the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 17.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Synergy

Active member
OK, let me point you in the right directions. For the answer to where the AC is dealt with, look at Isaiah 34 and 63. The answer is Edom, which is southern Jordan.

For his nationality, we go to Ezekiel 21.

24 “Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Because you have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are uncovered, so that in all your deeds your sins appear—because you have come to remembrance, you will be seized with the hand.​
25 And you, O slain, wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day has come, in the time of the punishment of the end,’​
26 thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Remove the turban and take off the crown; this will no longer be the same. Exalt that which is low and abase that which is high.​
27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin, I will make it. This also will be no more until He comes whose right it is, and I will give it to Him.’​


If your Bible says "profane" rather than "slain", that is due solely to a particular inaccurate interpretation of the passage. The Hebrew word (Strongs 2491) is used 93 times in the OT and at least 98% of the time it's translated "slain". Almost always it's those slain in battle of some sort. EW Bullinger's Companion Bible lists Revelation 13:3 as across reference
28 “And you, son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD concerning the sons of Ammon and concerning their reproach,’ and say: ‘A sword, a sword is drawn, polished for the slaughter, to cause it to consume, that it may be like lightning—​
29 while they see for you false visions, while they divine lies for you—to place you on the necks of the wicked who are slain, whose day has come, in the time of the punishment of the end.​
30 Return it to its sheath. In the place where YOU were CREATED, in the land of your ORIGIN, I will judge you.
31 I will pour out My indignation on you; I will blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and I will give you into the hand of brutal men, skilled in destruction.​
32 You will be fuel for the fire; your blood will be in the midst of the land. You will not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken.’”​
Abdullah was born in Amman, Jordan. Edom is southern Jordan. Bozrah is near Petra.

Hopefully, this should get you going in the right direction!

View attachment 968
A photo that I took of my wife in Petra



Thanks for those verses.

First the prince of Israel is mentioned and dealt with and then the sons of Ammon are mentioned and dealt with. Two different persons. Granted, the prince will be both a religious and political leader but that doesn't preclude the Pope from being the AC, especially with the firepower of the USA and Europe behind him.
 

Synergy

Active member
Greetings Synergy,

I understand that the King of the South was the British and allies who occupied Egypt and pushed at the Ottoman Turk in 1917. I understand that the King of the North will be Russia who will invade Turkey and then overflow and invade the Middle East. This King of the North is not the Antichrist, but the Antichrist is the Papacy in Rome, and will oppose Christ after the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 17.

Kind regards
Trevor
You're not accounting for the fact that the King of the North's reaction will be much more swift than 100+ years reaction you're promoting. That removes the Brits from being the King of the North. I think that Russia will occupy Turkey but only after the USA and Europe have flattened it. And I agree that the Papacy will be elevated to be the AC.
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Synergy,
You're not accounting for the fact that the King of the North's reaction will be much more swift than 100+ years reaction you're promoting.
I equate the push by the King of the South is part of the drying up of the Euphrates of Revelation 16:12. The UK and its allies are no longer in possession of Egypt as they were in 1917, and that phase is complete. I believe that the invasion of Turkey by Russia is independent of what the UK did, and is rather another phase of the drying up of the Euphrates, that is the Ottoman power. I have absolutely no evidence that the USA will go against Turkey, but consider that the USA could withdraw from the area. In other words, the focus is on two major events, one push by the UK, the other an invasion from the north, which I understand from Ezekiel 38:1 to be Russia.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Synergy

Active member
Greetings again Synergy,

I equate the push by the King of the South is part of the drying up of the Euphrates of Revelation 16:12. The UK and its allies are no longer in possession of Egypt as they were in 1917, and that phase is complete. I believe that the invasion of Turkey by Russia is independent of what the UK did, and is rather another phase of the drying up of the Euphrates, that is the Ottoman power. I have absolutely no evidence that the USA will go against Turkey, but consider that the USA could withdraw from the area. In other words, the focus is on two major events, one push by the UK, the other an invasion from the north, which I understand from Ezekiel 38:1 to be Russia.

Kind regards
Trevor
Russia is not that powerful. They would never chance a direct fight with the USA, which would happen if Russia invaded Israel.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Synergy,
Russia is not that powerful. They would never chance a direct fight with the USA, which would happen if Russia invaded Israel.
My understanding is NOT based upon how I assess present politics or military might, though many developments are tending towards my overall perspective. I assess that the Prince of Rosh in Ezekiel 38:1 is Russia and have believed this for many years, even during the demise of the USSR. There is some opposition to the invasion mentioned in Ezekiel 38:13, but this does not seem effective in halting the invasion, as it is only God's intervention not the "mighty" USA that is successful both in the Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11 accounts. Similarly Joel 3, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16, all of which I equate. I identify Sheba and Dedan to be the Gulf Arab States and the merchants of Tarshish as the UK and allies, the Commonwealth countries. I am uncertain if the USA is included in this description. Whether or not a Russian invasion could be just one part of a greater conflict, I am uncertain, but the USA could be busy elsewhere, or maybe the USA may be in decline. I am happy to wait, as I consider that Russia will take Constantinople (rather Istanbul) possibly very quickly like Crimea, and then it may take some years before a further move through Israel and into Egypt to fulfill the rest of Daniel 11:40-45, that is from verse 41 to 45. I also consider that Europe with the backing of the Vatican will support the Russian invasion, partly over the status of Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Synergy

Active member
Greetings again Synergy,

My understanding is NOT based upon how I assess present politics or military might, though many developments are tending towards my overall perspective. I assess that the Prince of Rosh in Ezekiel 38:1 is Russia and have believed this for many years, even during the demise of the USSR. There is some opposition to the invasion mentioned in Ezekiel 38:13, but this does not seem effective in halting the invasion, as it is only God's intervention not the "mighty" USA that is successful both in the Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11 accounts. Similarly Joel 3, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16, all of which I equate. I identify Sheba and Dedan to be the Gulf Arab States and the merchants of Tarshish as the UK and allies, the Commonwealth countries. I am uncertain if the USA is included in this description. Whether or not a Russian invasion could be just one part of a greater conflict, I am uncertain, but the USA could be busy elsewhere, or maybe the USA may be in decline. I am happy to wait, as I consider that Russia will take Constantinople (rather Istanbul) possibly very quickly like Crimea, and then it may take some years before a further move through Israel and into Egypt to fulfill the rest of Daniel 11:40-45, that is from verse 41 to 45. I also consider that Europe with the backing of the Vatican will support the Russian invasion, partly over the status of Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Kind regards
Trevor
I'm sorry but I am of the opinion that any idea that does not take in the USA, or the fact that the USA will not stand idly by as Israel gets invaded, is missing the mark by a long shot.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Synergy,
I'm sorry but I am of the opinion that any idea that does not take in the USA, or the fact that the USA will not stand idly by as Israel gets invaded, is missing the mark by a long shot.
Another possibility is that the USA may decline, and was hit the most by the virus, and the siege of the White House may be some evidence that God's judgements may start on those that are more responsible 1 Peter 4:17. I also find no mention of China and the nations of South America. Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 clearly speak of an invasion of Israel and the ME from the North, and the temporary success of this invasion.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Synergy

Active member
Greetings again Synergy,

Another possibility is that the USA may decline, and was hit the most by the virus, and the siege of the White House may be some evidence that God's judgements may start on those that are more responsible 1 Peter 4:17. I also find no mention of China and the nations of South America. Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 clearly speak of an invasion of Israel and the ME from the North, and the temporary success of this invasion.

Kind regards
Trevor
I see the "East" in Daniel 11:44 as alluding to China. It can't be India because India has a existential beef with Pakistan Mujahideen, and therefore India will be on the side of the King of the North (USA, Europe, & Vatican). As the saying goes: an enemy (USA) of my enemy (Political Islam: Pakistan Mujahideen, Erdogan, Ayatollahs, Hamas, etc...) is my friend (USA).

I see the "North" in Daniel 11:44 as alluding to Russia. As I said before, Russia does not have the firepower that the combined Western World possesses. Britain, France, Germany, USA will simply overwhelm Russia.

The nations of South America will verbally support their Pope. Nothing further is expected of them.
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Synergy,
I see the "East" in Daniel 11:44 as alluding to China.
I consider the following are connected, and the East is referring to Jesus and the faithful.
Daniel 11:44 (KJV): But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


The language above is both literal and to some extent figurative as the language and figures of Revelation 16:12-13 are based on the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus the King from the East who dried up the Euphrates to enter the city.
Isaiah 45:1–2 (KJV): 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Malachi 4:2–3 (KJV): 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


It can't be India because India has a existential beef with Pakistan Mujahideen, and therefore India will be on the side of the King of the North (USA, Europe, & Vatican). As the saying goes: an enemy (USA) of my enemy (Political Islam: Pakistan Mujahideen, Erdogan, Ayatollahs, Hamas, etc...) is my friend (USA).
I cannot understand why you place the USA in the confederacy of the King of the North.

I see the "North" in Daniel 11:44 as alluding to Russia. As I said before, Russia does not have the firepower that the combined Western World possesses. Britain, France, Germany, USA will simply overwhelm Russia.
And then you claim that the King of the North is Russia, and you claim that Russia will be overwhelmed, while both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 indicate that the King of the North will be successful at first. The King of the North will only be overthrown by Divine intervention, and the Battle of Armageddon will be part of this Divine intervention.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Arkycharlie

Super Member
The anti-Christ comes in place of the real Christ and Jews will accept him as the "moshiach". So it follows that the anti-Christ will be Jewish and a descendant of David, not an Arab.
I quoted Scripture and you quoted your rank speculation. Mark my words, you're in for a rude awakening!
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Archycharlie and skOrpiOn,
I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it, but I’ve known for years that King Abdullah will eventually be revealed as the Antichrist.
The anti-Christ comes in place of the real Christ and Jews will accept him as the "moshiach". So it follows that the anti-Christ will be Jewish and a descendant of David, not an Arab.
I believe that the Antichrist is the Papacy, not an Arab or a Jew. I do not believe that the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 is the Antichrist, but consider that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the Antichrist. Do both of you claim that the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 is the Antichrist?

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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