Daniel 9

[rakovsky]

"I know that you didn't, nor did I imply that you did."
Then you are making a straw man argument.

I don't agree that the fact that you weren't making one argument means that my argument about your actual argument is a straw man.

It is neat how much you know about the DSS with connection to Daniel 9 and how you really get into it.
It would be also nice if we (the public) had a better, more certain idea of who compiled the DSS. It would also be nice to have more of how the DSS treated Daniel 9, because the Anointed One fragment we've discussed is missing text, and although there is another fragment with verses from Daniel 9, they don't go to the 70 weeks portion.

Alternately, suppose that we did find the missing DSS verses for Daniel 9:25-27. They might easily match the Masoretic text that we currently have but without the punctuation (eg. Atnah in verse 25 between 7 and 62), since the Masoretes were the ones known to have added punctuation. Further, the LXX (Theodotion) seems like a generally good Greek rendering of the Hebrew text. Thus finding the DSS on that missing set of verses might not clear up the issue. Instead, the "Anointed One" fragment that we discussed earlier would be likely more helpful.

 

[docphin5]

You are saying that the nation Israel having a spiritual awakening combined with revealing the TOR as being Yeshua would be a confluence of heavenly and earthly events.
OK, that could make sense, but a couple things need to be qualified:

Yes, yes, now we are making music again from the same sheet of music.

1. This combination does not entail a location in the land. In other words, just for the nation Israel to have a spiritual awakening and get a revelation of the TOR does not equate to a requirement that the nation first be located in the geographical territory of Zion. Instead, Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Christianity teach that the Messiah must first be the one to bring a return to the Land.
2. The founding of the SOI was not the spiritual awakening that you are talking about. At best, within your paradigm, the founding the SOI and the discovery of the DSS could be connected for the SOI to recognize the TOR in the DSS. That makes sense at some logical level, but it doesn't really jive very well with issues that I raised before, like whether the actual finding of the DSS actually coincides with the founding of the SOI.

It is a bit difficult to explain but I was thinking of the confluence of two rivers overlapping, one being heavenly and the other being material or earthly. The former being the ideal or perfect and the latter being an imperfect copy. In this case, if nation Israel were to recognize the TOR as the anointed one, then they would be crossing the Jordan and entering the promised land on a spiritual level, that is, the perfect, BUT on a material level, they would have freed themselves from Gentile domination within the same time-frame (a generation perhaps?). Both overlap, -the confluence of the rivers, in that, just as true Israel leaves the power of the material world, so does nation Israel leave the power of the Gentiles. Of course, the latter is a temporary, imperfect fulfillment (because it is a copy of the perfect), whereas, the former is eternal and forever. It is the scripture holding a double meaning and fulfilled concurrently which happens on rare occassions. This may have been what the TOR had in mind when he said what he did. Remember, he gave us the REVEALED LAW, what the Law tells us about the past, present, and future and the “signs” to mark the passing of time.

 

[rakovsky]

I am looking for the most precise Hebrew version translation of the Bible, especially for the Book of Daniel.

Daniel 9:25 says:
ותדע ותשכל מן־מצא דבר להשיב ולבנות ירושלם עד־משיח נגיד שבעים שבעה ושבעים ששים ושנים תשוב ונבנתה רחוב וחרוץ ובצוק העתים׃

Biblehub's Interlinear translation runs:

Therefore know and understand
from the going forth of [the] word/command
to restore and build Jerusalem until messiah/anointed prince -
weeks/sevens seven
and weeks/sevens sixty and two
again and shall be built the street/plaza and the wall/moat and Even in troublesome times.

This mistakenly adds in the word "the" before "command".

One issue is whether מָשִׁ֖יחַ "messiah/anointed" here can only be a noun or can be either a noun or an adjective. In English, to say that an "anointed prince is coming" sounds normal grammatically, and "anointed" is only an adjective. So this refers to someone who has been anointed as a prince in English.

In contrast, "Messiah" and "Anointed One" are only nouns, not adjectives, so to call someone a "Messiah-Prince" or an "Anointed One-Prince" implies that someone fills the roles of both an "Anointed One" and a "Prince". This "adjective vs. noun" nuance can be significant, because the chapter later speaks of both a "Messiah" and a "Prince". (Verse 26 says that Messiah will be cut off: יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין ל֑וֹ )

A second issue is whether the phrase "62 weeks" belongs with the "7 weeks" in the clause about the time "from the word to restore and build Jerusalem until messiah prince - 7 weeks..." or if the 62 weeks starts the next sentence about rebuilding the plaza and moat. "62 weeks and 7 weeks" sounds clunky, but elsewhere the Book of Daniel uses a bit clunky phrases about time, like, "a time, a time, and half a time".

A third question is whether it says "even" in Hebrew? (וּבְצ֖וֹק)

A fourth issue is whether it really says "wall"? The Hebrew here is charuwts. This word means sharp or diligent in Hebrew, but sometimes in the OT it is translated as threshing sledge or gold. Biblehub explains that it is related to an Aramaic word meaning trench/moat:

noun [masculine] trench, moat (Aramaic חֲרִיצָא; Assyrian —ariƒu, —iriƒu, id., DlHWB)

Theodotion's ancient Greek LXX translation says wall/mound/earthworks (τεῗχος).

I am marking problem areas in Orange. The NASB says for this verse:

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a [y]decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until [z]Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with [aa]streets and moat, even in times of distress.

Notes:

1. Daniel 9:25 Lit word
2. Daniel 9:25 Or an anointed one
3. Daniel 9:25 Or city square

Doesn't it put "know" in the imperative, rather than saying "you are to know"?
The word "the" is not in the Hebrew before Prince.

The NASB looks comparably okay here, with just 3 problem spots.

The KJV says:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

"Therefore" should better be at the beginning of the sentence.

The NRSV says:

Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.

"Time" at the end of the verse should be plural.

The New Jerusalem Bible has:

Know this, then, and understand: From the time there went out this message: "Return and rebuild Jerusalem" to the coming of an Anointed Prince, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, with squares and ramparts restored and rebuilt, but in a time of trouble.

The Hebrew, does not put "Return and rebuild" in the imperative, does it? Rather, it uses an infinitive, speaking of a "word to restore and build Jerusalem", right? Plus, it says "restore", not "return", right?

The New English Translation (NET) is rather academic. Its footnotes are helpful. It has:

So know and understand:
From the issuing of the command[bk] to restore and rebuild
Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives,[bl]
there will be a period of seven weeks[bm] and sixty-two weeks.
It will again be built,[bn] with plaza and moat,
but in distressful times.

1. Daniel 9:25 tn Or “decree” (NASB, NIV); or “word” (NAB, NRSV).
2. Daniel 9:25 tn The word “arrives” is added in the translation for clarification.
3. Daniel 9:25 tn Heb “sevens” (also later in this line and in v. 26).sn The accents in the MT indicate disjunction at this point, which would make it difficult, if not impossible, to identify the “anointed one/prince” of this verse as messianic. The reference in v. 26 to the sixty-two weeks as a unit favors the MT accentuation, not the traditional translation. If one follows the MT accentuation, one may translate “From the going forth of the message to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives, there will be a period of seven weeks. During a period of sixty-two weeks it will again be built, with plaza and moat, but in distressful times.” The present translation follows a traditional reading of the passage that deviates from the MT accentuation.
4. Daniel 9:25 tn Heb “it will return and be built.” The expression is a verbal hendiadys.

The NET translation looks relatively good, with just 2 problem spots. The footnote #4 means that "return and be built" is like saying that something will be built in a returning way, ie. "rebuilt".

The JPT has:

And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [for] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

The Orthodox Study Bible has:

You shall know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to be answered and to build Jerusalem, until Christ the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Then the time shall return, and the streets and the wall shall be built; the times shall be left desolate.

I remember hearing that the OSB relies on the LXX.

Out of these translations above for Dan. 9:25, the NET and the NASB look the most precise.

 

[Lee Magee]

Jeremiah 29:10
That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

2 Chronicles 36:21 - למלאות שבעים שנה "to fulfil seventy years"
2 Chronicles 36:22 - לכלות דבר־יהוה בפי ירמיהו = τελέσαι ἔπος θεοῦ ἀμφ Ἱερεμίου "to fulfil God's word concerning Jeremiah"

Prophecy fulfilled. "Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel" > > Ezra & Nehemiah (not the New Testament)