Open Heart
Well-known member
It brings us closer to Hashem.
Daniel 9
- Thread starter Yodas_Prodigy
- Start date
rakovsky
Well-known member
There's a couple issues.
First, Open Heart said that Daniel is not considered a prophet by Jews. This is not correct about the person Daniel. It's only correct to say that about the category in which the Book is palced. It's in the "Writings" section of Tanakh, not the "Prophets" section. The rabbis did not deny that there was a person named Daniel who was a prophet or that this book included "Prophecies". Rambam said that Daniel calculated the date for the Messiah, for example.
This is why I wrote to Open Heart:
"I'm not sure that there is a practical theological difference though that results from the distinction in categories. Is there?"
I theorized that maybe the Book is in a different section (Writings) if the rabbis thought it was from Maccabean times. But I am not totally sure of when it was written. There are arguments about that.
Second, the Book might not be historically accurate in everything (eg. the text presents itself as a story by Daniel himself), but I guess some fragments of it could be from a really figure named Daniel or someone like him. One opinion among scholars is that the Book includes Babylonian "court tales" from the historical time when Jews were in the Babylonian court.
American Gothic
Well-known member
maybe not by Pharisees (?)
maybe so by Others (?)
sure, the Psalms are there as well
are they then in no way Prophetic?
rakovsky
Well-known member
You are misunderstanding what I have been trying to say.
The rabbis put Daniel and Psalms in the "Writings" section of the "Tanakh", not the prophets section.
What I have been trying to say is that just because some book is in the Writings section does not necessarily imply that all books in the "Writings" section do not have "prophecy". Psalms is one example of a book with prophecies according to the rabbis. The rabbis said that Psalms can serve as prefigurements of the Messiah. The rabbis for example thought that beginning of Psalm 22 for example, about a "star" of the morning alluded to Esther, whose name means "star", even though Esther lived after the time when David would have written Psalm 22.
This is why I wrote in one of my messages above:
I was trying to say that the book of Daniel can still have prophecies even if one agrees that it should go in the writings section.
American Gothic
Well-known member
I agree
some think book of Esther is prophetic as well
rakovsky
Well-known member
Gothic,
What did you think of my theory in Message #149 above:
Daniel 9
There's a couple factors that give me pause however on this topic, one being the Jewish ancient translations putting 7 weeks with 62 weeks. This mix of reasonable arguments makes me consider the possibility that the author could have been deliberately open ended and allowed for either reading -...
forums.carm.org
American Gothic
Well-known member
mmm, I don't put Daniel in Maccabean times (is that what you mean?)
rakovsky
Well-known member
Gothic,
DId you read my lost post above, in Message 149?
I was trying to figure out
- What made the author of Daniel think that 490 years from a decree to restore Jerusalem that all these apocalyptic events would occur?
- What made the author think that these apocalyptic events would take place 490 years from a word to restore Jerusalem?
- One hypothesis is that it's related to the 7 year shemita cycle. The Torah gave a 7 year cycle for leaving the fields fallow. Although I am no expert on agriculture, the Biblical demand to keep the fields fallow every 7 years sounds pretty tough to me. You don't want your population to starve. Supposedly God was supposed to provide food that year. But does that sound realistic for a whole population. Starvation could be massive. The only place it sounds feasible would be someplace with a relatively small population that could survive on wild plants and hunting. Am I misunderstanding the 7 year fallow cycle?
- Perhaps the author of Daniel expected the 490 years (a Jubilee year times ten) to have a special Jubilee-style spiritual power. Whereas the Jubilees were meant for releasing the Israelites' servants, a period of 10 Jubilees (490 years) could have a special power to release the Israelites themselves in some spiritual way. Does that sound right?
American Gothic
Well-known member
yes
generally yes, I agree
there is the 70 years of captivity because they didn't keep 70 years they were supposed to
and they were supposed to be protected and provided for in the Land, for obedience
I agree with the 7 years/shemita and the 7th year fallow (off the top of my head I think that is right)
and the Jubilee years
in a Dead Sea Scroll calendar study I like there is a 49 years (7 shemita) + 1 Jubilee year make up a Jubilee cycle (50 years, not 49)
it's an area of personal interest - I'm not dogmatic about it
you seem to like this stuff too
I believe in Daniel/Babylon, the angel Gabriel, prophecy, and all that, so...
in captivity there is then given to Daniel the prophecy of 70 weeks of years to come
which will have a "release of captives" element to it, yes I think that is correct
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American Gothic
Well-known member
did that make sense? I like that you like this stuff
I think we agree on basic things, and we are approaching it in general from 2 in some ways differing views
American Gothic
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this was confusing me
there was 70 years of captivity, and now after 70 x 7 years, there will be a special/greater captivity release (?) (spiritual/Sin related)
I've before connected the numbers, but never thought about a prophetic exponential result
if that is what you mean, it is interesting and to me symbolically makes sense
docphin5
Well-known member
Don’t forget that fifty Jubilees (2,500 years) symbolically represents the entire history of the material world, from Genesis to Canaan, according to the Book of Jubilees written during second century B.C. Symbolism was used extensively back then to convey meaning.
American Gothic
Well-known member
yep
my book and liked Calendar scheme has corresponding dates
docphin5
Well-known member
I suspect that the “Book of Jubilees” may be the “Book of the Living” referred to by later Jewish-Christians. It makes sense because if the Book of Jubilees symbolically represents the entire history of our world from beginning to end, then nothing happens in this world that has not already happened in the Book of Jubilees. Taken a step further, nobody receives eternal life in this world that has not already been named in the Book of Jubilees, —hence, “The Book of the Living” Ones.
RH Charles makes the perceptive observation that the time of Isaac and Jacob in the Book of Jubilees (BoJ) closely parallels the Maccabean king/priests. The author of the Book, namely, the new Moses, parallels the Teacher of Righteousness, who may have written the Book of Jubilees. Therefore, the ”Israel” in the BoJ wandering in the wilderness would correlate with the community of Qumran and those belonging to it. We would be waiting for Joshua (aka Jesus) ”to cross the Jordan” and lead us to Canaan or the “good land” as promised. In that way, spiritual Israel or the perfect man, namely, Jacob, receives the promise, according to the BoJ.
Basically, the spiritual Israel has been in the wilderness these actual 2,000 years which would equal 40 Jubilee years in the BoJ. Like I said, extensive symbolism was used in second century B.C. literature.
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American Gothic
Well-known member
Hmmm
I think there are books in Heaven - with names
I think Angels might study some books as well
I'm sorta mixed on how I view the Maccabees
I'll have to read up on Charles, I'm familiar with the name but not his work
I think he's been cited in various books I have
I think they saw part of their mission in setting up there as preparing the way, yes
with John the Baptist being specific individual forerunner
I think I've been told book of Jubilees is one work that sort of gets off date wise for a while and then comes back
within a few years of Genesis, Jasher, Seder Olam - I don't know specifics of that because I haven't looked into them
I need to slowly read thru it again
I sorta view the years you reference above as being the "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy
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docphin5
Well-known member
no comment, ha ha!
RH Charles’ work on translating the Book of Jubilees remains the standard even though a hundred years old.
What I Learned reading Charles is that the Hebrew Bible went through revisions in the 2nd century B.C. to modernize it, for example, correct dates and times, especially given that calendars were being updated from lunar to solar and time was measured more precisely. Those revisions can be traced through the different texts, eg., Samaritan Pentateuch, Book of Jubilees, Greek text, Ethiopian texts, etc., to the Masoretic text. His footnotes in the BoJ demonstrates it. It is in depth which is why his translation remains the standard work.
I tend to view the BofJ in relation to the Pentateuch as the GoJohn is viewed in relation to the synoptic Gospels, that is, the BofJ is the more spiritual version of the material. Its purpose is to elevate the material versus render it as literal or historical. IOW, accurate historical dates were unimportant to the author of BofJ. It was all about the symbolic meaning.
One critical difference between the weeks of time in Daniel’s prophecy and those Jubilee years in the BofJ is that the latter has no correlation to actual time whatsoever but the former does. Most people take Daniel’s weeks as actual time whereas BofJ has nothing to do with actual time. Everything is symbolic in the BofJ, even the names of the patriarchs and their wives have meaning associated with the narrative.
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American Gothic
Well-known member
If one take things literal it can be more fun
I've been meaning to do a Daniel calculation, but I'm watching Motorsports
will do when I can...
docphin5
Well-known member
Maybe initially, but critical investigation tends to necessitate a little more circumspect approach than taking a literal one. IMO, it is richer to perceive how the meaning of scriptures approximates our existence versus a them versus us. It is quite possible that “they”-may-be-“us” which I suspect the BoJ was trying to tell us.If one take things literal it can be more fun
Enjoy.
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Open Heart
Well-known member
Talmud, Megillah 3a
In certain ways they, the prophets, were greater than him, Daniel, and in certain ways he, Daniel, was greater than them. They were greater than him, as they were prophets and he was not a prophet.
rakovsky
Well-known member
The Chabad article says that Daniel had ruach ha-kodesh, but that his experience didn't rise to the level of prophecy:
A Messianic site says:
In Christian Bibles, Daniel is honoured as the fourth of the so-called “greater” prophets (rather than placed among the “minor” prophets).
[In the rabbis' Tanakh] the book of Daniel is not found in the Prophets (Nevi’im) section, and Daniel himself is not considered a prophet in Judaism.
This is because the Jewish definition of a Biblical prophet is one who had direct communication with God. Daniel, on the other hand, received divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh). He never actually saw or heard God.
...
Nevertheless, the men of Babylon clearly saw God’s sovereignty and power in Daniel’s life. They even told the king:
“There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God” (Daniel 5:11).
While prophets also had the Ruach (Spirit) of God with them, the sages say that God’s Spirit gave Daniel a depth of insight and revelation uncommon to prophets.
In this way, Daniel is considered to be a sage. And in the Talmud we read that “a sage is superior to a prophet” (Bava Batra 12a).
Daniel, the Prophet Who Was Not a Prophet | Messianic Bible
The prophecies of Daniel are unfolding before our very eyes, yet he is not among the prophets of the Jewish Bible. He is more than a prophet. Meet Daniel.free.messianicbible.com