Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

civic

Well-known member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!
And man's heart is incurably wicked Jer 17 9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
 

e v e

Super Member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!
one can want to be free, which is a choice..and also one can view the one causing all those things you listed above (not us since we are helpless), as the enemy and ask God to free of of the enemy. That is the extent of the "to be free" on this wretched earth.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
one can want to be free, which is a choice..and also one can view the one causing all those things you listed above (not us since we are helpless), as the enemy and ask God to free of of the enemy. That is the extent of the "to be free" on this wretched earth.
That ain't how it works. A dead person cannot do anything. He can't want, choose, ask. Next time you see ad dead corpse see if it can do those things.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!

Only by Grace!

Doug
 

Sketo

Well-known member
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - 1 Corinthians 15:10


Why do they give credit to another for their willing and working for his good pleasure?
 

e v e

Super Member
That ain't how it works. A dead person cannot do anything. He can't want, choose, ask. Next time you see ad dead corpse see if it can do those things.
what’s dead is this body - which is not His - the corpse of haggai 2.

whats depraved is this body and it’s needs and wants : the carnal man, this flesh and it’s mind.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I guess some believe in zombies- dead corpses walking :)
Civic,
With all due respect, my brother, but those of us on our side of the soteriological divide, at least the Arminian faction, do not believe that we are zombies. In all my conversations with Bruiser, I've come to realize that the only difference between us is the timing and method of God's grace.

You say God's grace Irresistibility regenerates us so that we can understand the spiritual truth of the gospel, and we believe that God's grace goes before us and enables us to understand the truth of the gospel. God's grace is the necessary prerequisite to both of our perspectives. We cannot do anything sans the grace of God doing its work in us beforehand.


Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Civic,
With all due respect, my brother, but those of us on our side of the soteriological divide, at least the Arminian faction, do not believe that we are zombies.

Maybe you neglected to notice that civic said, "some".
Or maybe you don't understand what "some" means.
At any rate, you don't speak for all Arminians.

In all my conversations with Bruiser,

There is no "Bruiser" posting here.
I believe you're referring to ReverendRV.
Please show some respect.



I've come to realize that the only difference between us is the timing and method of God's grace.

And I would disagree.

You say God's grace Irresistibility regenerates us so that we can understand the spiritual truth of the gospel,

We believe God's grace is necessary and sufficient.

and we believe that God's grace goes before us and enables us to understand the truth of the gospel. God's grace is the necessary prerequisite to both of our perspectives. We cannot do anything sans the grace of God doing its work in us beforehand.

You believe God's grace is necessary, but NOT sufficient.
And THAT is a huge and significant difference.

2Cor. 12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic,
With all due respect, my brother, but those of us on our side of the soteriological divide, at least the Arminian faction, do not believe that we are zombies. In all my conversations with Bruiser, I've come to realize that the only difference between us is the timing and method of God's grace.

You say God's grace Irresistibility regenerates us so that we can understand the spiritual truth of the gospel, and we believe that God's grace goes before us and enables us to understand the truth of the gospel. God's grace is the necessary prerequisite to both of our perspectives. We cannot do anything sans the grace of God doing its work in us beforehand.


Doug
Doug you should know me a little better than that I used this exaggerated illustration to make a point.

And we both agree apart from Gods Grace all men are doomed.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!
Unsaved men do seek God, so one must consider the context of these verses rather than just assume equal blindness with you among those you are addressing. One must define terms biblically, not Calvinistically. There is a great difference. I have told you these things over and over and you cannot be corrected. To be dead in sins does not mean men are void of reason, intellect, and will. The very idea flies in the face of simple logic and the reality in which we live. To actually believe that breathing air and drinking water is a sin is beyond any logic any sane person would reject out of hand. To claim that a man cannot submit himself to the law of God is outrageous and speaks evil of our wonderful scriptures that teach otherwise. To obey the law perfectly is outside our ability in the flesh, but to submit to it certainly is not. It is not a sin to be conceived and then born like you claim. The judgements of God given in the scriptures are against deeds done in the body. Men are not going to be judged for bad thoughts, they are going to be judged for bad deeds. At the great white throne judgement in Re 20, we are told the unsaved will be judged according to their "works." There is nothing mentioned in that judgement about thinking.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

How simple can it be, really? How many times must God say something for it to be true?

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How many of these sins can a man do when he is conceived?

Here is how a sin becomes a sin, punishable by the second death.


James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Sin is completely and totally the responsibility of man and God did not create men to sin. He created man to love him and obey him from the heart. Men without the Spirit of God indwelling them, like Jesus had as a man, does not have the power to resist sin, try as he might. But a man cannot be charged with sin until he is conscious of sin. (sin is not imputed when there is no law). The first law comes through the conscience and that requires that he have intellect, reason, and a will. If a man does not have a will to sin, then he cannot be charged with a sin.

I will quote a passage that shows a man struggling to please God and willing to please God and what the remedy is. Read it here;

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.


6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.


11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(this is the words of a man who is not saved)

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The war here is with the flesh. A man can and often does acknowledge God and his righteousness as the man above prove but he cannot overcome the weakness of the flesh.

Here is the answer;

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
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