ReverendRV
Well-known member
Faith Alone 'is' the Condition for Justification; which is 'Salvation Proper'. There is no Condition for Election though...
brightfame52
Well-known member
Are you saying they the elect get saved when they exercise a gift they have ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Are you saying they the elect get saved or justified when they exercise a gift they have ?
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
As soon as God gives it to them, yes they exercise it and are saved,
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Yes; Sola Fide...
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
They are justified, declared righteous by God by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. But justification is not salvation. We are saved when we exercise that faith God gave to us.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats salvation by works, by the exercise of man. Im surprised you believe that man is saved by what he exercises.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
I would say that Justification is Salvation Proper, like in Pilgrim's Progress. Pilgrim gets his Certificate; that's Salvation Proper. He leaves it at the rest station, goes back to get it and it's still there; it's what he needs to enter the Celestial City...
ReverendRV
Well-known member
So, what do you think about the Perseverance of the Saints then? Before he died, Sproul agreed the Perseverance of the Saints is a little Synergistic...
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Nope. God frees the will that has been bound by Satan. Once the will is freed, they exercise the God-given faith given unto them and are saved. God does not believe for us. He frees our will so we can believe in Him.
Theo1689
Well-known member
The problem with the idea of us being "free" (especially if one ASSUMES libertarian "free will") is that it has an errant understanding of what the Scripture means by "free".
It's not that we're "free" TO do things...
It's that we are "free" FROM...
Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
We are never 100% "free".
We are either "slaves of sin".
Or we are "slaves of righteousness".
Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom. 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Reprobate: "slaves of sin", "free from righteousness";
Born again: "free from sin", "slaves of righteousness".
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
We are freed from Satan and we exercise the God-given we’ve been given. I agree, we are somebody’s slave, Romans 6:-16-19 couldn’t be any clearer.
Theo1689
Well-known member
"Perseverance of the Saints" can be understood synergistically, or monergistically.
It is synergistic if it is understood as synonymous with, "we must endure to the end".
It is monergistic if it is understood as I like to think of it, "preservation of the saints".
God preserves us.
God holds us in His hand, and doesn't let go (John 6:28-29).
God ensures that we persevere.
We don't persevere based on our own efforts, but because of God's promise.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Well said, it's all of Grace. I think it's another example of Compatibalism...
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry, if you are telling me that a person gets saved by the exercising of faith, thats salvation by works, by what a man does. Even if you say its God given Faith, you still saying you are saved by exercising a gift you have.
The word exercise:
bodily or mental exertion,
to put (faculties, rights, etc.) into action, practice, or use:
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those who God preserves will persevere, its like what Paul said Phil 2 12 13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
And remember perseverance applies only to the born again, who can never become unborn again
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Nope. This all happens at the same time.
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Exercising faith is the evidence of conversion, not the cause. God doesn’t believe for us.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You teach and believe that a person is saved after they exercise a gift God gave them. Thats salvation by work, an exertion you do !
Also right, God doesnt believe for no one, its something the person does.
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
No it’s not. I should have known better than taking you off ignore. Good by hyper.