Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The chicken came first.

Probably!

Regeneration comes first.

Considering that we have no record of anyone making such a claim in the first two and a half centuries, and certainly nothing systematic or widespread for the first 16 centuries, I have my doubts both historically and biblically that this is a true statement.

Both biblical

I'm not aware of any mention of chickens in the Genesis account, but there is a reasonable probability that the chicken came first- though that just the logical inference if assumptions that the original objects of creation were all created as functioning adults are true. But these are merely assumptions, not verbatim facts!

There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!) Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.

no philosophical input necessary.

If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?

Then I understand you correctly. brightfame52 doesn't think having faith is a necessary condition for salvation! I'm beginning to think you are a hyper-Calvinistic proponent with a non-equal view of the traditional 5-solas of Reformed thought! Interesting.


Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Please note, the poster I'm responding to has me on "ignore".
So he will likely not see this post unless someone else quotes it, or raises the same objections.

There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!)

"T'aint So!" is not a valid rebuttal.

Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.

I find this to be 100% unBiblical.
And I notice this poster has not provided any Biblical argument.

I found the phrase "born again" in John 3:3, 3:7, 1 Pet. 1:3, and 1 Pet. 1:23.

And NONE of these passages teach that "believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding" it.



If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.

So you just admitted that "faith prior to being born again" is "not a biblical theology construct".

Congratulations! ;)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Then I understand you correctly. brightfame52 doesn't think having faith is a necessary condition for salvation! I'm beginning to think you are a hyper-Calvinistic proponent with a non-equal view of the traditional 5-solas of Reformed thought! Interesting.


Doug
So you have on record what I stated. !
 

Iconoclast

Active member
God does not say he made eggs, but rather the animals;
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.



Considering that we have no record of anyone making such a claim in the first two and a half centuries, and certainly nothing systematic or widespread for the first 16 centuries, I have my doubts both historically and biblically that this is a true statement.



I'm not aware of any mention of chickens in the Genesis account, but there is a reasonable probability that the chicken came first- though that just the logical inference if assumptions that the original objects of creation were all created as functioning adults are true. But these are merely assumptions, not verbatim facts!


No Doug , they are facts as written in Genesis1...every winged fowl is very clear as Adam was told to name the animals.




There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!) Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.
eph2:1


If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.
This is philosophical nonsense that avoids what scripture teaches.being quickened is regeneration.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?
This is where you go too far my friend. Faith isn't a work, it is Gods gift.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
This is where you go too far my friend. Faith isn't a work, it is Gods gift.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Faith becomes a work when anyone makes it a condition to get saved. If you believe that friend, you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Faith becomes a work when anyone makes it a condition to get saved. If you believe that friend, you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.
Faith is a gift of God, we both agree. But this faith is never dormant, meaning it is given to the elect, they exercise it and are saved. Ppl are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the vehicle through which grace flows.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?
Faith Alone 'is' the Condition for Justification; which is 'Salvation Proper'. There is no Condition for Election though...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Faith is a gift of God, we both agree. But this faith is never dormant, meaning it is given to the elect, they exercise it and are saved. Ppl are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the vehicle through which grace flows.
Are you saying they the elect get saved when they exercise a gift they have ?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Are you saying they the elect get saved or justified when they exercise a gift they have ?
They are justified, declared righteous by God by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. But justification is not salvation. We are saved when we exercise that faith God gave to us.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
They are justified, declared righteous by God by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. But justification is not salvation. We are saved when we exercise that faith God gave to us.
I would say that Justification is Salvation Proper, like in Pilgrim's Progress. Pilgrim gets his Certificate; that's Salvation Proper. He leaves it at the rest station, goes back to get it and it's still there; it's what he needs to enter the Celestial City...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thats salvation by works, by the exercise of man. Im surprised you believe that man is saved by what he exercises.
So, what do you think about the Perseverance of the Saints then? Before he died, Sproul agreed the Perseverance of the Saints is a little Synergistic...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Nope. God frees the will that has been bound by Satan. Once the will is freed, they exercise the God-given faith given unto them and are saved. God does not believe for us. He frees our will so we can believe in Him.

The problem with the idea of us being "free" (especially if one ASSUMES libertarian "free will") is that it has an errant understanding of what the Scripture means by "free".

It's not that we're "free" TO do things...
It's that we are "free" FROM...

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We are never 100% "free".
We are either "slaves of sin".
Or we are "slaves of righteousness".

Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom. 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Reprobate: "slaves of sin", "free from righteousness";

Born again: "free from sin", "slaves of righteousness".
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The problem with the idea of us being "free" (especially if one ASSUMES libertarian "free will") is that it has an errant understanding of what the Scripture means by "free".

It's not that we're "free" TO do things...
It's that we are "free" FROM...

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We are never 100% "free".
We are either "slaves of sin".
Or we are "slaves of righteousness".

Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom. 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Reprobate: "slaves of sin", "free from righteousness";

Born again: "free from sin", "slaves of righteousness".
We are freed from Satan and we exercise the God-given we’ve been given. I agree, we are somebody’s slave, Romans 6:-16-19 couldn’t be any clearer.
 
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