Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Not quite correct. God is bound by his own word. He is a God of truth and cannot lie (Titus 1:2). When it says in scripture that if we repent, our sins will be forgiven (Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11; Acts 5:31; 8:22; 1 John 1:9); he is bound by that promise, if we fulfill our part. He cannot deny his own word. Provided we fulfill our part, he is obligated to fulfill his. He cannot go back or reneg on what he has said.

I am not aware that I said anything contrary to this.

Doug
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I am not aware that I said anything contrary to this.

Doug
Well, that is not exactly what you said. This is what you said, ... God has no obligation to respond positively to anything man might try to do. It is all grace all the time!” That is not correct. God is obligated by his own word, and by the promises he has made, to forgive us our sins when we repent. He would be a liar if he didn't, which he is not.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Well, that is not exactly what you said. This is what you said, ... God has no obligation to respond positively to anything man might try to do. It is all grace all the time!” That is not correct. God is obligated by his own word, and by the promises he has made, to forgive us our sins when we repent. He would be a liar if he didn't, which he is not.

Yes, but he gave his word by grace, not by obligation to man. God is only obligated to himself, his character and nature. He did not have to save anyone from a legal obligation, he saves us graciously, not because we deserve it! In other words, "his own word, and by the promises he has made" are not man generated! We had nothing to do with it at all! God chose to save, he didn't have to! It is all of grace!

Doug
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Yes, but he gave his word by grace, not by obligation to man. God is only obligated to himself, his character and nature. He did not have to save anyone from a legal obligation, he saves us graciously, not because we deserve it! In other words, "his own word, and by the promises he has made" are not man generated! We had nothing to do with it at all! God chose to save, he didn't have to! It is all of grace!

Doug
Thank you, I see your point. But I think there is an important element hidden in that theology which you have overlooked. God has several attributes, “justice” being one of them. But it is not the only one! Another important attribute that God has is “mercy”. The glory of God is manifested by all of his attributes, not just some of them. God would be deficient in character if he was not “merciful;” just as he would be deficient in character if he was not “just”. The Atonement is a manifestation of the divine attribute of mercy. I did not create myself, neither did you. God chose to create us the way he did, with the ability to fall into temptation and sin. Justice demands that we be punished when we sin. Mercy requires the a way of escape be provided for us subject to certain preconditions—which are faith and repentance. Therefore God has provided a way of displaying both his attributes of justice and mercy. The Atonement is a display of the divine attribute of mercy, which provides a way of escape for us from the consequences of our sins, subject to the precondition of faith and repentance, which is entirely our responsibility—which in turn makes Calvinism utterly false! :giggle:
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Mercy requires the a way of escape be provided for us subject to certain preconditions—

That's simply not true:

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

—which in turn makes Calvinism utterly false! :giggle:

It's disturbing how "gleeful" you seem to be about proclaiming that.
Almost as if you aren't even serious...
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!
Would you say that this list is an apt description of the men of Sodom? If so, then Jesus gives at least one answer to your question when He says that if Sodom had seen the same miracles that He performed in Capernaum, it would have remained until this day. Could there be a greater example of a reprobate city than Sodom? Yet even they would have repented in response to the ministry of Jesus!
 
G

guest1

Guest
Would you say that this list is an apt description of the men of Sodom? If so, then Jesus gives at least one answer to your question when He says that if Sodom had seen the same miracles that He performed in Capernaum, it would have remained until this day. Could there be a greater example of a reprobate city than Sodom? Yet even they would have repented in response to the ministry of Jesus!
hyperbole

Jesus taught His miracles did not save anyone, they authenticated His message and its was undeniable He was the promised Messiah and the miracles were proof.

He came to His own and His own received Him not !

An evil and adulterous generations seeks miracles. The only miracle He promised them was the sign of Jonah.

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That's simply not true:

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Psalm 25:

10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psalm 86:

5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Psalm 100:


5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
It's disturbing how "gleeful" you seem to be about proclaiming that.
Almost as if you aren't even serious...
Calvinism is an evil and damnable heresy that needs to be exposed.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Psalm 25:

10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

.... "unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies".
How do you get "everyone" out of that?

Psalm 86:

5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

"... all THEM that call upon thee".
How do you get "everyone" out of that?

Psalm 100:

5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

Yes, His mercy is "everlasting" and "endureth".

How do you get a scope of "everyone" out of that?

Calvinism is an evil and damnable heresy that needs to be exposed.

<Chuckle>
Nothing but worthless mud-slinging.

Coming from a MORMON, no less.

Suppose you and I walk into a Methodist church.
Guess which one of us is offered the hand of fellowship, and which one isn't?
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
hyperbole
"Hyperbole?" Really?
An evil and adulterous generations seeks miracles. The only miracle He promised them was the sign of Jonah.
Acts 4:29-30
"Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."

While it is an adulterous generation that insists on seeing a sign before they will believe, it is also a biblical truth that signs and wonders have evangelistic value; and Christians ought to pray that God will perform such signs through our hands so that more people will believe.
 
G

guest1

Guest
"Hyperbole?" Really?

Acts 4:29-30
"Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."

While it is an adulterous generation that insists on seeing a sign before they will believe, it is also a biblical truth that signs and wonders have evangelistic value; and Christians ought to pray that God will perform such signs through our hands so that more people will believe.

Luke 17:11-19

Jesus Heals Ten Men With Leprosy​

11 Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12 As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy[a] met him. They stood at a distance 13 and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!”
14 When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed.
15 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan.
17 Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” 19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
zerinus

Psalm 25:

10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

That applies to the Elect for whom Christ kept Covenant in behalf of, and Gods Testimonies. Rom 5 19
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Thank you, I see your point. But I think there is an important element hidden in that theology which you have overlooked. God has several attributes, “justice” being one of them. But it is not the only one! Another important attribute that God has is “mercy”. The glory of God is manifested by all of his attributes, not just some of them. God would be deficient in character if he was not “merciful;” just as he would be deficient in character if he was not “just”. The Atonement is a manifestation of the divine attribute of mercy. I did not create myself, neither did you. God chose to create us the way he did, with the ability to fall into temptation and sin. Justice demands that we be punished when we sin. Mercy requires the a way of escape be provided for us subject to certain preconditions—which are faith and repentance. Therefore God has provided a way of displaying both his attributes of justice and mercy. The Atonement is a display of the divine attribute of mercy, which provides a way of escape for us from the consequences of our sins, subject to the precondition of faith and repentance, which is entirely our responsibility—which in turn makes Calvinism utterly false! :giggle:

I would tend to agree with much of what you have said, however, you are forgetting another aspect of God's being, namely, his volitional will! To say that God is merciful and just is undoubtedly true, but to say that he must be merciful and just is quite another.

If God has to be merciful necessarily, then all men would have to be saved. Conversely, if God necessarily has to be just, then no one would be saved, for all are guilty. But volition means that a sovereign God can do whatever he wants to do with his attributes according to his own good pleasure. God doesn't have to be merciful, just because he is capable of mercy. By being merciful, he is not being just because guilt demands judgement. So a choice has to be made as to the advent and extent of mercy and the rules governing that choice. (Which is another volitional action in itself!)

"Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn't have to be!" (Dr. Douglas Carter, former president of Ohio Christian University)


Doug
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I would tend to agree with much of what you have said, however, you are forgetting another aspect of God's being, namely, his volitional will! To say that God is merciful and just is undoubtedly true, but to say that he must be merciful and just is quite another.

If God has to be merciful necessarily, then all men would have to be saved. Conversely, if God necessarily has to be just, then no one would be saved, for all are guilty. But volition means that a sovereign God can do whatever he wants to do with his attributes according to his own good pleasure. God doesn't have to be merciful, just because he is capable of mercy. By being merciful, he is not being just because guilt demands judgement. So a choice has to be made as to the advent and extent of mercy and the rules governing that choice. (Which is another volitional action in itself!)

"Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn't have to be!" (Dr. Douglas Carter, former president of Ohio Christian University)


Doug
Rom 9:14-16

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I would tend to agree with much of what you have said, however, you are forgetting another aspect of God's being, namely, his volitional will! To say that God is merciful and just is undoubtedly true, but to say that he must be merciful and just is quite another.
I have to disagree with you on this one. To say that God is just and merciful, necessitates that he must be just and merciful—always! Another great attribute of God is that he is a God of truth and cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Does that mean that God can never lie? Absolutely! If God told one single lie in the entire history of the universe, he would permanently lose that attribute, and could no longer be described as a God of truth who cannot lie. The same applies to all of his other attributes, including justice and mercy. There will never be a time when God can chose not to be merciful, or not to be just.
If God has to be merciful necessarily, then all men would have to be saved. Conversely, if God necessarily has to be just, then no one would be saved, for all are guilty.
That shows a misunderstanding of the attributes of justice and mercy. The two attributes are not mutually exclusive, or acting in opposition to each other. It is not either/or. Mercy does not rob justice, and justice does not rob mercy.
Butut volition means that a sovereign God can do whatever he wants to do with his attributes according to his own good pleasure.
Not true, see above. The attributes of God are unchanging. There will never be a time when God can “choose” not to be just, not be merciful, or not to honest or tell the truth.
Godod doesn't have to be merciful, just because he is capable of mercy.
Again incorrect: he has to be, always!
ByBy being merciful, he is not being just because guilt demands judgement.
Again, incorrect. That is a misunderstanding of the principles being discussed. Mercy does not rob justice. Mercy is not applied indiscriminately, or unconditionally. Mercy is applied only on condition of genuine repentance.
SoSo a choice has to be made as to the advent and extent of mercy and the rules governing that choice. (Which is another volitional action in itself!)
See above. There are rules. The rule for applicable mercy are faith and repentance.
"Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn't have to be!" (Dr. Douglas Carter, former president of Ohio Christian University)

Doug
The doctrine of grace is grossly misunderstood by Evangelicals and Calvinists. Grace is not unconditional. I have discussed that elsewhere on the foru
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Rom 9:14-16

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Yep, true enough! God chooses whether to be merciful or not to whomever he wants. That is his choice alone. He chooses the be merciful to whomever declares with his/her mouth that "Jesus as Lord" and believes in his heart than God has raised him from the grave!


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I have to disagree with you on this one. To say that God is just and merciful, necessitates that he must be just and merciful—always! Another great attribute of God is that he is a God of truth and cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Does that mean that God can never lie? Absolutely! If God told one single lie in the entire history of the universe, he would permanently lose that attribute, and could no longer be described as a God of truth who cannot lie. The same applies to all of his other attributes, including justice and mercy. There will never be a time when God can chose not to be merciful, or not to be just.

Not being able to lie is not an attribute, it is a consequence of his being truth!

That shows a misunderstanding of the attributes of justice and mercy. The two attributes are not mutually exclusive, or acting in opposition to each other. It is not either/or. Mercy does not rob justice, and justice does not rob mercy.

Can God be both just by punishing us for our sins and at the same time be merciful and forgive us of our sins?

Again incorrect: he has to be, always

Is everyone saved?

See above. There are rules. The rule for applicable mercy are faith and repentance.

Yep, and God chose to make those parameters when he didn't have too!

The doctrine of grace is grossly misunderstood by Evangelicals and Calvinists. Grace is not unconditional. I have discussed that elsewhere on the foru[m]

I didn't say anything about it being unconditional. Of course it's conditional. But grace is grace because it wasn't necessary to be extended legally.


Doug
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Not being able to lie is not an attribute, it is a consequence of his being truth!
Which amounts to the same thing. God cannot lie because he is a God of truth (Deut. 32:4; Psalm 31:5; Isaiah 65:16). Being a “God of truth” is one of his attributes, just as being “love” (1 John 4:8, 16) is one of his attributes.
Can God be both just by punishing us for our sins and at the same time be merciful and forgive us of our sins?
You are ignoring the conditions required for applicable mercy. Mercy is not applied indiscriminately or unconditionally. The required conditions are faith and repentance. If every sinner on earth, without exception, chose to believe and repent, every sinner on earth, without exception would obtain mercy, and would be saved. If, on the other hand, no sinner on earth, without exception, chose to believe and repent, not one sinner on earth would be saved; and every sinner on earth, without exception, would be dammed. You are basing your assumptions on the false premise that mercy is applied indiscriminately and unconditionally, by means of an arbitrary decree, which is not biblical.
Is everyone saved?
Everyone who believes and repents? Yes, without exception!
Yep, and God chose to make those parameters when he didn't have too!
But when the required conditions are fulfilled, yes, he has to! He would be lying, and denying his own word, if he chose not to.
I didn't say anything about it being unconditional. Of course it's conditional. But grace is grace because it wasn't necessary to be extended legally.

Doug
That is a kind of self-contradictory statement. “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble” (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5). That is one requirement for obtaining grace, being humble. Your entire theological thinking is based on the false assumption that God makes all of these choices and decisions unconditionally, by some kind of arbitrary fiat, without any regard to the person's worthiness, readiness, preparedness, fulfilling the requirements that he himself has laid down, etc. which is not biblical, and not true.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Yep, true enough! God chooses whether to be merciful or not to whomever he wants. That is his choice alone. He chooses the be merciful to whomever declares with his/her mouth that "Jesus as Lord" and believes in his heart than God has raised him from the grave!


Doug
False. You making God's Mercy conditioned on the behavior of the sinner. You are contradicting yourself.
 
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