brightfame52
Well-known member
The humble are the regenerate. The proud are the unregenerate.
zerinus
Well-known member
So you have to be regenerated in order to receive grace? I thought in your theology it worked the other way. Regeneration comes by grace, not grace by regeneration.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You have to be regenerate to be humble. We men by nature are proud.
zerinus
Well-known member
Too bad the Bible doesn't agree:
James 4:
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
1 Peter 5:
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
It doesn't say, “Get regenerated first, and you are all done”. In fact, he is talking to believers, church members, who were already “regenerated”.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Are you sure?
Where does that say that "the unregenerate can humble themselves"?
1) Are you saying that this passage is ABOUT the regenerate? If so, what is your proof?
2) Are you saying that people are able to obey this command? If so, what is your proof?
Where does that say that "the unregenerate can humble themselves"?
1) Are you saying that this passage is ABOUT the regenerate? If so, what is your proof?
2) Are you saying that people are able to obey this command? If so, what is your proof?
Of course not.
Why would he say that?!
So you admit that your proof-texts do NOT teach that "unregenerate" people can humble themselves, since you ADMIT that these passages are about "believers"?
Congratulations!
You just refuted yourself!
TibiasDad
Well-known member
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Belief is not a behavior! Salvation is conditioned (by God) on whether we believe or not! (John 3:18)
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it does.
zerinus
Well-known member
No comment.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it is. It's a action in the mind of a person. Jn 318 does not have anything to do with it.
brightfame52
Well-known member
No I'm not disagreeing with Paul far from that.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Behavior: the way or manner in which one conducts oneself. https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/behavior
Behavior is a pattern of doing something. A consistent manner of action in response to stimuli. A single act, especially when done for the first time, is not a behavior!
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
God's mercy is what establishes the condition. In other words, that we have any chance of being saved, no matter the soteriological opinion of how that happens, is an act of mercy, and that act of mercy is not conditioned and is universally irresistible.
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
I know what a behavior is. Believing is part of behavior . Dictionary said:
- observable activity in a human or animal.
- the aggregate of responses to internal and external stimuli.
Now the definition for a work strongs 2041:
- any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
- Believing is a action of the mind. Activity Action is a behavior.
Even if you don't agree with the term behavior that is find believing is a act of the mind and therefore a work.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
A singular act does not constitute behavioral patterns, or an "aggregate", collective history of tendency. The first act of believing cannot be defined as an "aggregate of responses" (plural). Believing can and should become a behavioral pattern, and that is a necessary condition, but the initial action of believing, in iteslf, is not.
Believing is not a "work", for Paul argues that Abraham did not work, but "believed God" and his promises to him. (Rom 4:1-3) So once again, you are arguing directly against Paul's writing.
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it is a work . No it's consistent with Paul. Men turn it into a condition to get saved. It's a spiritual work that the regenerate new creature does . It's a good work that God has ordained for the new creature to walk in . Once you make believing a condition for the natural man to do to get saved it looses it contrast grace vs works!
TibiasDad
Well-known member
A) It is not a work, it is the opposite of a work.
Rom 4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
B) God's word makes belief the condition:
John 3:16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Rom 10:5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
No it's a work, a act of the mind. And it's false to say God makes a condition for salvation. That overthrows Salvation by Grace.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Paul says that when "Abraham believed" that it was not works, but faith! QED!
Believing does not necessitate an obligatory act by God simply because man did it! God obligated himself by setting the condition, whoever believes, as the standard of determination. Man's actions have zero merit in themselves. Man's actions in themselves cannot obligate God to act positively toward him, but God setting the condition as necessary does obligate God to action to maintain his own integrity and truthfulness.
Paul, John, and Jesus all speak of a conditional element: believing! Oppose them at your peril!
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
I have no beef with Paul. It's those that make faith/believing a condition to get saved that I contend against. Making faith and believing a meritorious work to get saved.
