I think I would want to find out.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I think you do, but don't want to admit or deal with the truth. And as I've said already, Calvinism sees belief as a condition too, so I am wondering if you even understand your own theology!
Matt 8:13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 1:12,13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: …
John 3:18
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 11:35 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,
Romans 9:33
as it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Rom 10:4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Rom 10: 10-11For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 Pet 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: "See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Every single one of these is a conditional statement in which belief/faith is a necessary prerequisite to spiritual blessings. It is the only possible way to understand the meaning of these statements by nearly all the writers of the NT.
Doug
zerinus
Well-known member
Ah! But the word “condition” does not occur in any of the verses, therefore you lose!
😮🤒🤑😈
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Ah! But the word “condition” does not occur in any of the verses, therefore you lose!
I'm sure that will be her argument!
Doug
The scriptures tells us that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and I believe it. It also says he did not baptize anyone in water. John the Baptist was not baptizing anyone in water so they will be saved. Jesus Christ ministered to his own people Israel for 3 1/2 years with 12 apostles and 70 prophets. This is the same political structure that was present under Moses in the Pentateuch. He came to them as their King and he was crucified by them for claiming he was the Messiah that was predicted in the OT and not because he claimed to be their savior. He could not be their savior in the gospel accounts. The caption written on his cross was "this is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews. They could have and should have received Jesus as their Messiah and King while he was on the earth, but they did not. He, along with his disciples preached what he called the gospel (good news, glad tidings) of the kingdom, a kingdom that was a theme that runs through all the OT prophets and into the New Testament as well. None of his disciples even knew anything about his impending death and resurrection and Jesus did not teach it to them until the last few weeks of his earthly ministry. After his death on the cross the disciples hid themselves out of fear of the Jews and the women went to the tomb early on Sunday morning to anoint his dead body, not to watch him rise from the dead.
Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
After his resurrection and the new truth though the Spirit that he revealed to them because he indwelt them, they were as bold as lions and they went for the first 7 years of their ministry to none but Israel with the gospel of Jesus Christ, risen from dead and preaching that they should repent of putting their Messiah to death and receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life through him and in his name. The token of their belief and their identification with him is baptism in water and the laying on of the apostles hands. Because few of them believed in Jesus the disciples were given the commission to go and preach to the gentiles after 10 years of preaching to Judah and Israel. When gentiles began to be saved in Acts 10, the salvation was given the instant they believed in their hearts. The receiving of the Spirit of God is salvation and he is eternal life and he dwells in the believer. The gentiles were not promised a Messiah like the Jews and he was preached to us as the savior of the world. Peter said to the contentious Jews in Acts 11 that they had been saved by receiving the Spirit as they had at the beginning. No one is including baptism in water as something that is done after receiving the Spirit and as adding anything to salvation. The person who teaches that salvation is by being baptized in water is not saved because they are not believing the gospel of Christ. They are preaching another gospel. The only way God will save a man from his sins is if he believes the gospel of Christ. Add any works of your own and you are anathema in the sight of God.
Ga:1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Believe the words.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Simplest thing in the World!! NOBODY comes to Christ, unless they're DRAWN TO HIM (john 6:44) by Father God. and since SAVING FAITH is GIFTED by god, and not generated by man (Eph 2:8,9), then The Holy Spirit moves on a person with CONVICTION OF SIN, and of judgement, which is the beginning of FAITH - God's WORD to them(Rom 10:17). It's then up to the person to Surrender and REPENT OF THEIR SIN, and cry out for salvation in the FAITH That God's given them. THEN the person is BORN AGAIN, the Holy Spirit indwells them, and everything changes.
How do you go about making a salvation doctrine out of a word that is not in the scriptures where your salvation is being explained? God raised up a man, Paul, and commissioned him as the apostle to preach the wonderful salvation to the world, who had never had the gospel preached to them before and to explain every aspect of the mind of God as it concerns us. He writes 13 letters to gentiles and never one time uses the word "draw" in any of them. How do you explain that?
Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
In John 6, the Jews are drawn by the Father to Jesus as the promised Messiah of Israel and the Son of God sent down from heaven to be the life of the world, because they knew he had feed the five thousand men, plus women and children on the mountain the day before with 5 loaves and two small fishes and that is what the manna represented that was in their OT scriptures. Comparing what he did with what the scriptures said about him is how they were drawn. Some would just not put it together and would not come to him.
zerinus
Well-known member
So all that lengthy rhetoric was intended to prove that baptism is not required?
None of that is biblical. Cornelius was baptized, even though he had received the Spirit prior to his baptism; and for everyone else, the Spirit was given after baptism, not before.
Salvation does not come “by baptism,” it comes by God when we do what he says. Two different things.
I think you are preaching “another gospel”. The words of Jesus is clear: “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Anybody who is teaching anything different is teaching “another gospel”.
Which is exactly what you are doing.
I do, too bad you don't.
brightfame52
Well-known member
If anyone makes believing a condition to get saved they're promoting a work salvation which is contrary to scripture. Salvation is by Grace not of works.
Baptism in water is associated with death, not life.So all that lengthy rhetoric was intended to prove that baptism is not required?
None of that is biblical. Cornelius was baptized, even though he had received the Spirit prior to his baptism; and for everyone else, the Spirit was given after baptism, not before.
Salvation does not come “by baptism,” it comes by God when we do what he says. Two different things.
I think you are preaching “another gospel”. The words of Jesus is clear: “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Anybody who is teaching anything different is teaching “another gospel”.
Which is exactly what you are doing.
I do, too bad you don't.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
The word "planted" is a reference to the burial of the physical man.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Consider the words in the text.
1) Together - The "we" and Christ
2) We - Christ and the church, his body
3) Likeness - a figure, a type, an illustration of one thing to another.
4) planting - a burial
5) Baptism - a planting
The next verses I quote are those that describes why Christ died and was buried, and rose again and puts it in the context of baptism.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
In other words, the old body that served sin has been planted in death, separation from sin, and we walk in newness of life in resurrection victory over sin as a governing principle of our lives.
Now, watch the next verse;
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Read that carefully. The baptism in water is a death and burial. You could not live under that water. It is what happened to our Lord Jesus Christ because of our sin, but only one time. He died and was buried. He was not alive during those three days. If he were alive during those three days, logic and reason would determine that he could not have been raised FROM THE DEAD.
Look at the word "reckon." We are not actually dead to sin because we live in weak bodies yet. We have not yet been raised from the dead in a glorified body that can never sin again. But we have the promise as believers in the gospel of Christ that it will take place. We take a snapshot of it when we are baptized. Meanwhile, we are to live a victorious life under the power of the Spirit of God who lives in us and gives us resurrection power and desire.
Look at it this way.
2 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
This passage gives us God's mind on the doctrine of baptism. He always illustrates his spiritual truths with the physical so we can understand him. He does not think like we do and so this is how he bridges the gap. The spiritual man, reading his word regularly, will begin to see that and will be taught of the Spirit, who indwells him.
1 Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
The anointing is the Holy Spirit of God, who is God himself.
This passage is the comprehensive teaching from God on baptism for the Christian. It is death and burial of the old man of sin. Sin put him in that grave and he who has trusted Christ alone for salvation is making a public statement of this. The resurrection is a picture of the walk of the new man in Christ.
Believe the words.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Believing is a synonym for faith; is faith a necessary prerequisite to salvation?
Doug
G
guest1
Guest
Try reading Hebrews the 11th chapter regarding faith in the OT.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Again, if anyone makes believing a condition to get saved, they are promoting salvation by works. The scripture nowhere endorses that.
zerinus
Well-known member
zerinus
Well-known member
I did, thank you. Now I suggest you read the 2nd chapter of James, regarding how “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (v. 24), and how “by works was faith made perfect” (v. 22).
G
guest1
Guest
works are a result of salvation not the means to salvation as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and as James teaches a result of real faith.
you put the cart before the horse.
see the entire book of Galatians that refutes your false gospel and works based salvation.
hope this helps !!!
zerinus
Well-known member
You just don't want to listen to the facts. You have already made up your mind what your theology will be, and there is nothing that is going to change it.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
So what does the Bible say to do when you've dealt with that kind of person long enough?
Man, you are a hard core water dog.
The foundation of the church of Jesus Christ. He is the chief cornerstone. The foundation of the temple of God in the spiritual sense are the Jewish apostles and prophets. Here is how the church of Jesus Christ is built.
1) Jesus Christ, the head of the corner
2) The apostles and the prophets - the foundation of the building
3) The lively stones - the believers of all ages
4) the capstone - Jesus Christ.
He is the first and the last, the beginning and end - of the church.
Let's talk about the foundation, point two.
19 Now therefore ye (gentile believers in context) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers in context), and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
This person will be a trinity. Jew, gentile, and Spirit and they will be one..
Now read this about the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
In verse 22 Jesus Christ breathed eternal life into them. He was now in their bodies instead of outside of them. He was a member of each of their persons. Thomas in V 25, who did not have the Spirit yet, thought that by believing Jesus rose from the dead one would have life. Jesus thought that too because he said so in correcting Thomas in V 27.
There is nothing in this passage about baptism but there is something about receiving eternal life and having Christ in their persons, which is salvation. Now, here is a real kicker. There is no record that these men in that room that evening of the resurrection were ever baptized in water. Certainly they were not required by Jesus Christ to be baptized in water before he breathed the Holy Ghost into them. There is no record in the book of Acts that they were ever baptized in water. There is a record that they baptized other Jews and laid their hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost.
Now, the first few chapters in the Acts, which is a history, is God dealing with Israel, his people. When he began dealing with gentiles in Acts 10, the same men baptized the believers in Christ but they had already received Jesus Christ by faith. Baptism is after the fact of salvation now for us.
Here is what Peter said about Cornelius when he was questioned about going to gentiles by the other apostles and brethren in Jerusalem.
Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
He baptized the gentiles of whom Cornelius and his house were the first. Baptism is something without. Peter is speaking of salvation is something within, the Spirit of God. They received him by faith in what the preacher said about Jesus Christ.
The gospel you are preaching cannot save you are anyone else. You can repent.
Last edited: