I think I would want to find out.I don't know about that, but it is certainly true since Jesus introduce it.
I think I would want to find out.I don't know about that, but it is certainly true since Jesus introduce it.
Find what out? We know that Jesus was baptized, and he commands it for everyone else in the NT, and that is all I need to know.I think I would want to find out.
I dont understand what you talking about with all these conditions.
Believing is not a condition to get saved, period. Thats making Salvation conditioned on works, something a man does. Thats condemned in scripture.
Ah! But the word “condition” does not occur in any of the verses, therefore you lose!I think you do, but don't want to admit or deal with the truth. And as I've said already, Calvinism sees belief as a condition too, so I am wondering if you even understand your own theology!
Matt 8:13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 1:12,13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: …
John 3:18
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 11:35 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,
Romans 9:33
as it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Rom 10:4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Rom 10: 10-11For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 Pet 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: "See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Every single one of these is a conditional statement in which belief/faith is a necessary prerequisite to spiritual blessings. It is the only possible way to understand the meaning of these statements by nearly all the writers of the NT.
Doug
Ah! But the word “condition” does not occur in any of the verses, therefore you lose!😮🤒🤑😈
The scriptures tells us that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and I believe it. It also says he did not baptize anyone in water. John the Baptist was not baptizing anyone in water so they will be saved. Jesus Christ ministered to his own people Israel for 3 1/2 years with 12 apostles and 70 prophets. This is the same political structure that was present under Moses in the Pentateuch. He came to them as their King and he was crucified by them for claiming he was the Messiah that was predicted in the OT and not because he claimed to be their savior. He could not be their savior in the gospel accounts. The caption written on his cross was "this is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews. They could have and should have received Jesus as their Messiah and King while he was on the earth, but they did not. He, along with his disciples preached what he called the gospel (good news, glad tidings) of the kingdom, a kingdom that was a theme that runs through all the OT prophets and into the New Testament as well. None of his disciples even knew anything about his impending death and resurrection and Jesus did not teach it to them until the last few weeks of his earthly ministry. After his death on the cross the disciples hid themselves out of fear of the Jews and the women went to the tomb early on Sunday morning to anoint his dead body, not to watch him rise from the dead.Find what out? We know that Jesus was baptized, and he commands it for everyone else in the NT, and that is all I need to know.
Simplest thing in the World!! NOBODY comes to Christ, unless they're DRAWN TO HIM (john 6:44) by Father God. and since SAVING FAITH is GIFTED by god, and not generated by man (Eph 2:8,9), then The Holy Spirit moves on a person with CONVICTION OF SIN, and of judgement, which is the beginning of FAITH - God's WORD to them(Rom 10:17). It's then up to the person to Surrender and REPENT OF THEIR SIN, and cry out for salvation in the FAITH That God's given them. THEN the person is BORN AGAIN, the Holy Spirit indwells them, and everything changes.Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)
So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?
hope this helps !!!
How do you go about making a salvation doctrine out of a word that is not in the scriptures where your salvation is being explained? God raised up a man, Paul, and commissioned him as the apostle to preach the wonderful salvation to the world, who had never had the gospel preached to them before and to explain every aspect of the mind of God as it concerns us. He writes 13 letters to gentiles and never one time uses the word "draw" in any of them. How do you explain that?Simplest thing in the World!! NOBODY comes to Christ, unless they're DRAWN TO HIM (john 6:44) by Father God. and since SAVING FAITH is GIFTED by god, and not generated by man (Eph 2:8,9), then The Holy Spirit moves on a person with CONVICTION OF SIN, and of judgement, which is the beginning of FAITH - God's WORD to them(Rom 10:17). It's then up to the person to Surrender and REPENT OF THEIR SIN, and cry out for salvation in the FAITH That God's given them. THEN the person is BORN AGAIN, the Holy Spirit indwells them, and everything changes.
So all that lengthy rhetoric was intended to prove that baptism is not required?The scriptures tells us that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and I believe it. It also says he did not baptize anyone in water. John the Baptist was not baptizing anyone in water so they will be saved. Jesus Christ ministered to his own people Israel for 3 1/2 years with 12 apostles and 70 prophets. This is the same political structure that was present under Moses in the Pentateuch. He came to them as their King and he was crucified by them for claiming he was the Messiah that was predicted in the OT and not because he claimed to be their savior. He could not be their savior in the gospel accounts. The caption written on his cross was "this is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews. They could have and should have received Jesus as their Messiah and King while he was on the earth, but they did not. He, along with his disciples preached what he called the gospel (good news, glad tidings) of the kingdom, a kingdom that was a theme that runs through all the OT prophets and into the New Testament as well. None of his disciples even knew anything about his impending death and resurrection and Jesus did not teach it to them until the last few weeks of his earthly ministry. After his death on the cross the disciples hid themselves out of fear of the Jews and the women went to the tomb early on Sunday morning to anoint his dead body, not to watch him rise from the dead.
Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
After his resurrection and the new truth though the Spirit that he revealed to them because he indwelt them, they were as bold as lions and they went for the first 7 years of their ministry to none but Israel with the gospel of Jesus Christ, risen from dead and preaching that they should repent of putting their Messiah to death and receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life through him and in his name. The token of their belief and their identification with him is baptism in water and the laying on of the apostles hands. Because few of them believed in Jesus the disciples were given the commission to go and preach to the gentiles after 10 years of preaching to Judah and Israel.
None of that is biblical. Cornelius was baptized, even though he had received the Spirit prior to his baptism; and for everyone else, the Spirit was given after baptism, not before.Whenen gentiles began to be saved in Acts 10, the salvation was given the instant they believed in their hearts. The receiving of the Spirit of God is salvation and he is eternal life and he dwells in the believer. The gentiles were not promised a Messiah like the Jews and he was preached to us as the savior of the world. Peter said to the contentious Jews in Acts 11 that they had been saved by receiving the Spirit as they had at the beginning. No one is including baptism in water as something that is done after receiving the Spirit and as adding anything to salvation.
Salvation does not come “by baptism,” it comes by God when we do what he says. Two different things.Thehe person who teaches that salvation is by being baptized in water is not saved because they are not believing the gospel of Christ.
I think you are preaching “another gospel”. The words of Jesus is clear: “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Anybody who is teaching anything different is teaching “another gospel”.Theyey are preaching another gospel. The only way God will save a man from his sins is if he believes the gospel of Christ. Add any works of your own and you are anathema in the sight of God.
Which is exactly what you are doing.Ga:1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
I do, too bad you don't.Believe the words.
If anyone makes believing a condition to get saved they're promoting a work salvation which is contrary to scripture. Salvation is by Grace not of works.I think you do, but don't want to admit or deal with the truth. And as I've said already, Calvinism sees belief as a condition too, so I am wondering if you even understand your own theology!
Matt 8:13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 1:12,13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: …
John 3:18
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 11:35 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,
Romans 9:33
as it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Rom 10:4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Rom 10: 10-11For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 Pet 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: "See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Every single one of these is a conditional statement in which belief/faith is a necessary prerequisite to spiritual blessings. It is the only possible way to understand the meaning of these statements by nearly all the writers of the NT.
Doug
Baptism in water is associated with death, not life.So all that lengthy rhetoric was intended to prove that baptism is not required?
None of that is biblical. Cornelius was baptized, even though he had received the Spirit prior to his baptism; and for everyone else, the Spirit was given after baptism, not before.
Salvation does not come “by baptism,” it comes by God when we do what he says. Two different things.
I think you are preaching “another gospel”. The words of Jesus is clear: “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Anybody who is teaching anything different is teaching “another gospel”.
Which is exactly what you are doing.
I do, too bad you don't.
If anyone makes believing a condition to get saved they're promoting a work salvation which is contrary to scripture. Salvation is by Grace not of works.
Try reading Hebrews the 11th chapter regarding faith in the OT.I don't know about that, but it is certainly true since Jesus introduce it.
Again, if anyone makes believing a condition to get saved, they are promoting salvation by works. The scripture nowhere endorses that.Believing is a synonym for faith; is faith a necessary prerequisite to salvation?
Doug
Baptism has a lot of symbolism associated with it, no arguments. But that is an entirely separate issue from whether it is a gospel requirement or not. The words of Jesus is unmistakable and clear: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Ignore that at your peril.Baptism in water is associated with death, not life.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
The word "planted" is a reference to the burial of the physical man.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Consider the words in the text.
1) Together - The "we" and Christ
2) We - Christ and the church, his body
3) Likeness - a figure, a type, an illustration of one thing to another.
4) planting - a burial
5) Baptism - a planting
The next verses I quote are those that describes why Christ died and was buried, and rose again and puts it in the context of baptism.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
In other words, the old body that served sin has been planted in death, separation from sin, and we walk in newness of life in resurrection victory over sin as a governing principle of our lives.
Now, watch the next verse;
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Read that carefully. The baptism in water is a death and burial. You could not live under that water. It is what happened to our Lord Jesus Christ because of our sin, but only one time. He died and was buried. He was not alive during those three days. If he were alive during those three days, logic and reason would determine that he could not have been raised FROM THE DEAD.
Look at the word "reckon." We are not actually dead to sin because we live in weak bodies yet. We have not yet been raised from the dead in a glorified body that can never sin again. But we have the promise as believers in the gospel of Christ that it will take place. We take a snapshot of it when we are baptized. Meanwhile, we are to live a victorious life under the power of the Spirit of God who lives in us and gives us resurrection power and desire.
Look at it this way.
2 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
This passage gives us God's mind on the doctrine of baptism. He always illustrates his spiritual truths with the physical so we can understand him. He does not think like we do and so this is how he bridges the gap. The spiritual man, reading his word regularly, will begin to see that and will be taught of the Spirit, who indwells him.
1 Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
The anointing is the Holy Spirit of God, who is God himself.
This passage is the comprehensive teaching from God on baptism for the Christian. It is death and burial of the old man of sin. Sin put him in that grave and he who has trusted Christ alone for salvation is making a public statement of this. The resurrection is a picture of the walk of the new man in Christ.
Believe the words.
I did, thank you. Now I suggest you read the 2nd chapter of James, regarding how “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (v. 24), and how “by works was faith made perfect” (v. 22).Try reading Hebrews the 11th chapter regarding faith in the OT.
works are a result of salvation not the means to salvation as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and as James teaches a result of real faith.I did, thank you. Now I suggest you read the 2nd chapter of James, regarding how “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (v. 24), and how “by works was faith made perfect” (v. 22).
You just don't want to listen to the facts. You have already made up your mind what your theology will be, and there is nothing that is going to change it.works are a result of salvation not the means to salvation as per Ephesians 2:8-10 and as James teaches a result of real faith.
you put the cart before the horse.
see the entire book of Galatians that refutes your false gospel and works based salvation.
hope this helps !!!
So what does the Bible say to do when you've dealt with that kind of person long enough?You just don't want to listen to the facts. You have already made up your mind what your theology will be, and there is nothing that is going to change it.
Baptism has a lot of symbolism associated with it, no arguments. But that is an entirely separate issue from whether it is a gospel requirement or not. The words of Jesus is unmistakable and clear: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Ignore that at your peril.
Man, you are a hard core water dog.Baptism has a lot of symbolism associated with it, no arguments. But that is an entirely separate issue from whether it is a gospel requirement or not. The words of Jesus is unmistakable and clear: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. Ignore that at your peril.