Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

Chalcedon

Well-known member
You just don't want to listen to the facts. You have already made up your mind what your theology will be, and there is nothing that is going to change it.
Its the truth from the bible and the entire book of Galatians refutes your works based salvation. Works are the result of the the means of Salvation.

Bible 101- you didn't pass the course.

You need to retake the the course and pass the test.

hope this helps !!!
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
How do you go about making a salvation doctrine out of a word that is not in the scriptures where your salvation is being explained? God raised up a man, Paul, and commissioned him as the apostle to preach the wonderful salvation to the world, who had never had the gospel preached to them before and to explain every aspect of the mind of God as it concerns us. He writes 13 letters to gentiles and never one time uses the word "draw" in any of them. How do you explain that?
I gave you the reference, and you ignored it.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Man, you are a hard core water dog.

The foundation of the church of Jesus Christ. He is the chief cornerstone. The foundation of the temple of God in the spiritual sense are the Jewish apostles and prophets. Here is how the church of Jesus Christ is built.

1) Jesus Christ, the head of the corner
2) The apostles and the prophets - the foundation of the building
3) The lively stones - the believers of all ages
4) the capstone - Jesus Christ.

He is the first and the last, the beginning and end - of the church.

Let's talk about the foundation, point two.

19 Now therefore ye (gentile believers in context) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers in context), and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This person will be a trinity. Jew, gentile, and Spirit and they will be one..

Now read this about the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

In verse 22 Jesus Christ breathed eternal life into them.
He didn't “breathe into them eternal life”. The “breathing” part was a symbolic gesture signifying the reception of the Holy Ghost, which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
He was now in their bodies instead of outside of them. He was a member of each of their persons. Thomas in V 25, who did not have the Spirit yet, thought that by believing Jesus rose from the dead one would have life. Jesus thought that too because he said so in correcting Thomas in V 27.

There is nothing in this passage about baptism but there is something about receiving eternal life and having Christ in their persons, which is salvation. Now, here is a real kicker. There is no record that these men in that room that evening of the resurrection were ever baptized in water. Certainly they were not required by Jesus Christ to be baptized in water before he breathed the Holy Ghost into them. There is no record in the book of Acts that they were ever baptized in water. There is a record that they baptized other Jews and laid their hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost.
That is utterly false. There is every indication throughout the NT that every true believer and convert to the Church was baptized.
Now, the first few chapters in the Acts, which is a history, is God dealing with Israel, his people. When he began dealing with gentiles in Acts 10, the same men baptized the believers in Christ but they had already received Jesus Christ by faith. Baptism is after the fact of salvation now for us.
Talking nonsense. Faith precedes baptism, no arguments, and nobody said anything different. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Believing comes before baptism, that is the doctrine.
Here is what Peter said about Cornelius when he was questioned about going to gentiles by the other apostles and brethren in Jerusalem.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The baptized the gentiles of whom Cornelius and his house were the first. Baptism i something without. Peter is speaking of salvation i something within, the Spirit of God. They received him by faith in what the preacher said about Jesus Christ.
Talking nonsense, no idea what you are taking about.
The gospel you are preaching cannot save you are anyone else. You can repent.
The gospel I am preaching is the gospel of Jesus, and comes straight out of the mouth of Jesus: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Its the truth from the bible and the entire book of Galatians refutes your works based salvation. Works are the result of the the means of Salvation.

Bible 101- you didn't pass the course.

You need to retake the the course and pass the test.

hope this helps !!!
Read James 2, and get back to me afterwards.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So how can one who is dead in sin, a slave to sin, in bondage to sin, sin is their master, who hates God and loves sin, cannot do good choose to be free ?



hope this helps !!!

Really makes ya wonder why God would find it necessary to harden Pharaoh's heart eh?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
How could the OT promises to Israel draw gentiles?
JEWS were no different than Gentiles in the Old Testament, EXCEPT that they had been GIVEN God's word (which they really didn't HAVE A CLUE about). SOME of them lived by it imperfectly, But they were all SINNERS anyway. Messiah hadn't DIED yet, and NOBODY was "cleansed" from their SIN until after. Believeing Jews (and gentiles) were held in the place of the dead (Abraham's Bosom) against the day when they'd be cleansed, and go with Jesus into Heaven. The Holy Spirit has always been here, and He's the one who DRAWS - whether Jew or Gentile.
 

JDS

Well-known member
. The Holy Spirit has always been here, and He's the one who DRAWS - whether Jew or Gentile.
That is what you say but I cannot find God or any of his inspired writers saying it. Where do any of them say what you claim for God or man? Does he explain this doctrine of drawing somewhere in his Bible? How did you learn this.

Have you ever heard a sermon on the doctrine of drawing? I ask these things because many people hear false doctrine all their lives and accept it as truth without ever studying it out. Most do not mean Ill will by doing so. The fact is there is no hint in scripture that God draws gentiles to himself although he wants all the world to come to him and be saved.
 

JDS

Well-known member
He didn't “breathe into them eternal life”. The “breathing” part was a symbolic gesture signifying the reception of the Holy Ghost, which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
.”
I am not sure why anyone would make such a statement as this. What language in the text indicates that John is quoting Jesus speaking symbolic language here? What is the symbolism? What happens to a believer when the Holy Spirit enters into his body? He is quickened, born anew by the presence of the Holy Spirit, who is life.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


That is utterly false. There is every indication throughout the NT that every true believer and convert to the Church was baptized.

Well, it should be easy for you to prove then. Show us where they were baptized in water and give the reason why they were baptized.



Talking nonsense. Faith precedes baptism, no arguments, and nobody said anything different. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Believing comes before baptism, that is the doctrine.

For the Jews in the first century they were to believe/repent and they were to be baptized in water but salvation was not guaranteed until the apostles laid their hands on them. Jesus had told these men that whatever they bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever they loose on earth would be loosed in heaven. Of course the Holy Spirit was in them to give them discernment. In Acts 8 Phillip preached to the Samaritans and they believed and were baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until later when the apostles had confirmed them and laid their hands on them. It was then they received the Holy Spirit into their bodies. They discerned that Simon the sorcerer was not a true believer and withheld the Spirit from him, though he had believed and was baptized.

Talking nonsense, no idea what you are taking about.
It is not nonsense to say that salvation comes by believing the testimony of the Father concerning his Son which is given to us in words. Baptism in water has nothing to do with it.

The gospel I am preaching is the gospel of Jesus, and comes straight out of the mouth of Jesus: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

He also said these signs shall follow them that believe, and then he names five miraculous sign gifts. Are they following you and was your faith confirmed by one or more of these signs? Those words are in the same text, which tells me that context is much more important than you are allowing for, since you have never seen one of these sign gifts being performed.

You really need to give some serious thought to what you are preaching. Eternity is at stake.
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
That is what you say but I cannot find God or any of his inspired writers saying it. Where do any of them say what you claim for God or man? Does he explain this doctrine of drawing somewhere in his Bible? How did you learn this.
What Faith IS: Heb 11:1. How Faith Comes: Rom 10:17. How faith is applied Mark 11:22-24. Drawing: John 6:44. Saving Faith as a GIFT: Eph 2:8,9.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Again, if anyone makes believing a condition to get saved, they are promoting salvation by works. The scripture nowhere endorses that.

You are avoiding the question. Is faith, being a synonym of belief/believing, a prerequisite of salvation? Do you have to have faith to be saved? When Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is salvation predicated on the prerequisite act of repentance or does he say you must be saved first so that you can repent and be baptized?


Doug
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
You are avoiding the question. Is faith, being a synonym of belief/believing, a prerequisite of salvation? Do you have to have faith to be saved? When Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is salvation predicated on the prerequisite act of repentance or does he say you must be saved first so that you can repent and be baptized?


Doug

I do believe the right answer will depend on the honesty of the responder.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I do believe the right answer will depend on the honesty of the responder.

Misled people believe they are being honest, but to disregard a scriptural display of evidence that plainly contradicts their rote responses suggests an abortion, even if unintended, of honesty. Honesty means dealing with the logical meaning of the language used, and a lack thereof is definitively suspect, in my humble opinion.


Doug
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Misled people believe they are being honest, but to disregard a scriptural display of evidence that plainly contradicts their rote responses suggests an abortion, even if unintended, of honesty. Honesty means dealing with the logical meaning of the language used, and a lack thereof is definitively suspect, in my humble opinion.


Doug

When men do not deny themselves but serve their fleshly desires, this happens, "Let God be true and every man a liar."

Men think they can serve their own fleshly desires and pretend otherwise. But such games won't do anything for them when they stand before the Judge.
 
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