Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are avoiding the question. Is faith, being a synonym of belief/believing, a prerequisite of salvation? Do you have to have faith to be saved? When Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is salvation predicated on the prerequisite act of repentance or does he say you must be saved first so that you can repent and be baptized?


Doug
How many times do I have to say it? If anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I am not sure why anyone would make such a statement as this. What language in the text indicates that John is quoting Jesus speaking symbolic language here? What is the symbolism? What happens to a believer when the Holy Spirit enters into his body? He is quickened, born anew by the presence of the Holy Spirit, who is life.
Jesus promised the gift of the Holy Ghost to his disciples after his resurrection:

Luke 24:

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

John 7:

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 1:

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


That promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


John 20:21-22 which you had quoted, where it says that Jesus “breathed on them,” refers to the same thing that the above verses are referring to. It doesn't mean that they received the Holy Ghost immediately there and then, when he had “breathed on them”. It refers to the same promise that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
That has no direct relevance to the subject we are discussing.
Well, it should be easy for you to prove then. Show us where they were baptized in water and give the reason why they were baptized.
There are loads:

Matthew 28:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not [and consequently not baptized] shall be damned.

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
• • •
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 22:

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For the Jews in the first century they were to believe/repent and they were to be baptized in water but salvation was not guaranteed until the apostles laid their hands on them. Jesus had told these men that whatever they bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever they loose on earth would be loosed in heaven. Of course the Holy Spirit was in them to give them discernment. In Acts 8 Phillip preached to the Samaritans and they believed and were baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until later when the apostles had confirmed them and laid their hands on them. It was then they received the Holy Spirit into their bodies. They discerned that Simon the sorcerer was not a true believer and withheld the Spirit from him, though he had believed and was baptized.
And how does that prove that baptism is not a requirement? The fact that the gift of the Holy Ghost is a requirement (and was always given after the baptism of water), it does not prove that the baptism of water was not a requirement.
It is not nonsense to say that salvation comes by believing the testimony of the Father concerning his Son which is given to us in words. Baptism in water has nothing to do with it.
I trust the words of Jesus more:

Matthew 28:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not [and consequently not baptized] shall be damned.


What makes you think that I should trust your words more than Jesus’ words?

He also said these signs shall follow them that believe, and then he names five miraculous sign gifts. Are they following you and was your faith confirmed by one or more of these signs? Those words are in the same text, which tells me that context is much more important than you are allowing for, since you have never seen one of these sign gifts being performed.
What makes you so sure that I haven't seen? Just because you haven't, it doesn't mean that nobody else has.
You really need to give some serious thought to what you are preaching. Eternity is at stake.
Physician, heal thyself.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
You are avoiding the question. Is faith, being a synonym of belief/believing, a prerequisite of salvation? Do you have to have faith to be saved? When Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is salvation predicated on the prerequisite act of repentance or does he say you must be saved first so that you can repent and be baptized?


Doug
Hello Doug,
Is it possible that it all happens simultaneously? Repentance and saving faith are granted at regeneration, the unseen work of the Spirit in making the person a new creation by being born from above?:unsure:
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
How many times do I have to say it? If anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.

You are ignorantly mistaken. A work is something which we would do that would cause God to respond to us. But faith is not something which causes God to respond to us; rather faith is our RESPONSE to what God has done. He gave His son as a free gift of His grace not because of anything we have done. Unlike a work, faith does not earn what God has done. Rather, faith responds to what God has done. God has sent his son.

Not only so. You won't be obtaining new life in Christ until you die with him first. You have just about everything backwards. Jesus died first and then he was raised up to new life not the other way around. We don't have new life in him until we first die with him. We do the dying because we humans are exceptional at dying. THAT is how we put our faith in Christ. But that dying with Christ won't save us. That's death not life. God does the saving part. . Having died with Christ it is God who then raises up to new life in Christ.

You have much to learn and your stubbornness isn't going to help you get there nor will it help you before God on Judgment Day.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Maybe you neglected to notice that civic said, "some".
Or maybe you don't understand what "some" means.
At any rate, you don't speak for all Arminians.



There is no "Bruiser" posting here.
I believe you're referring to ReverendRV.
Please show some respect.





And I would disagree.



We believe God's grace is necessary and sufficient.



You believe God's grace is necessary, but NOT sufficient.
And THAT is a huge and significant difference.

2Cor. 12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
And we have a winner!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Again, if anyone makes believing a condition to get saved, they are promoting salvation by works. The scripture nowhere endorses that.
Believing is a Condition for Salvation; but isn't a Condition for Election. This point is at the heart of the Arminian and Calvinism argument...

Category Mistakes...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Belief is evidence of salvation, not the cause.
Agreed...

But in Reformed Theology we have the 5-Solas, one of which is Faith Alone and another is Grace Alone; this is also at the heart of the Arminian and Calvinism argument. Faith Alone was enough to cause the Protestant Reformation. Faith trumped Catholic Works, but Hyper Calvinism has Grace Trumping Faith; when all Solas are equally true and equally potent. By adding the qualifier 'Alone' after the word Faith, it's as if Faith were the only qualification for Salvation. The same goes for Grace Alone, it's so important that it's as if Grace were the lone aspect of Salvation. None of the Solas are truly Alone or we live by Contradiction, so they are equally true; as if they're in some kind of Hypostatic Union. We are Justified through Faith Alone, though we are never Elected because of Faith. ~ Election is not a Sola. Figure out how to convene a Christian Council and add Election Alone to the Solas, then Hyper Calvinism will have a leg to stand on...

The Moral of the story is that Hypers should love Faith Alone as much as they love Grace Alone; but more than they love Election Alone...
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Believing is a Condition for Salvation; but isn't a Condition for Election. This point is at the heart of the Arminian and Calvinism argument...

Category Mistakes...
You don't get it. When you make believing a condition to get saved it is making it a work man does to get saved. That is not biblical and the bible condemns such a notion !
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Agreed...

But in Reformed Theology we have the 5-Solas, one of which is Faith Alone and another is Grace Alone; this is also at the heart of the Arminian and Calvinism argument. Faith Alone was enough to cause the Protestant Reformation. Faith trumped Catholic Works, but Hyper Calvinism has Grace Trumping Faith; when all Solas are equally true and equally potent. By adding the qualifier 'Alone' after the word Faith, it's as if Faith were the only qualification for Salvation. The same goes for Grace Alone, it's so important that it's as if Grace were the lone aspect of Salvation. None of the Solas are truly Alone or we live by Contradiction, so they are equally true; as if they're in some kind of Hypostatic Union. We are Justified through Faith Alone, though we are never Elected due to Faith; Election is not a Sola. Figure out how to convene a Christian Council and add Election Alone to the Solas, then Hyper Calvinism will have a leg to stand on...
I'm not a hyper-Calvinist and believe that all the Solas stand together and must be qualified beyond their oft mistaken face value.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Jesus: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.
Calvs: He that is saved shall believe and be baptized! 🥶
"Jesus?"

Hmmmm...

Bible: Jesus is an Uncreated Eternal Being, YHWH in the flesh. John 8:24.


The Cult of Mormonism: Jesus was created by a physical union between a physical God and Mary and is the Devil's brother. Galatians 1:8-10.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
You don't get it. When you make believing a condition to get saved it is making it a work man does to get saved. That is not biblical and the bible condemns such a notion !
Belief comes from God; Romans 10:17, and is the same power that raised Christ from the dead thus not an inherent ability; Ephesians 1:19. Therefore it is a work of God, not a work of man; John 6:29.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
You posting
Okay...

Do you agree Faith Alone is one of the 5-Solas of the Reformation?

Please define Faith Alone as you understand it.

Is 'Faith Alone' equal to 'Glory to God Alone'?

If not, which if any Sola is more prominent for whatever reason?

Should Unconditional Election Alone be added to the 5-Solas?
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
"Jesus?"

Hmmmm...

Bible: Jesus is an Uncreated Eternal Being, YHWH in the flesh. John 8:24.

The Cult of Mormonism: Jesus was created by a physical union between a physical God and Mary and is the Devil's brother. Galatians 1:8-10.
Calvs are also bad losers. No surprise there of course. Heretics normally are.
 
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