Dead, Slave, Evil, Ungodly, Loving Darkness etc.........

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Hello Doug,
Is it possible that it all happens simultaneously? Repentance and saving faith are granted at regeneration, the unseen work of the Spirit in making the person a new creation by being born from above?:unsure:

It could, and in fact does, but then it becomes a logical/philosophical argument and not a biblical/theological argument. We have no definitive way to prove either the chicken or the egg or faith or regeneration.

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
What do you mean ? Explain

You said, "If anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does." So I take that to mean that "faith" is not a necessary condition of salvation, despite Paul's declaration that it is in Rom 3:22, saying, "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Faith/belief precede righteousness/salvation being given.

Doug
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Not if you ignore 1 John 5:1....

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes [present] that Jesus is the Christ has been born [perfect] of God,

And to those who believe he gave the authority to BECOME children of God.

So do you need to become a child of God to believe or does it say it was to those who believe he gave authority to become children of God?
 

Iconoclast

Active member
It could, and in fact does, but then it becomes a logical/philosophical argument and not a biblical/theological argument. We have no definitive way to prove either the chicken or the egg or faith or regeneration.

Doug
The chicken came first.
Regeneration comes first.
Both biblical no philosophical input necessary.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
The chicken came first.
Regeneration comes first.
Both biblical no philosophical input necessary.
It's funny they act like they just don't know if regeneration or faith came first, but then argue against it vehemently elsewhere saying it had to be us that did it by our believing, then, because of that, God saved us.

The fact is they cannot stand the fact that a person has to be made alive before faith and salvation via regeneration, Ephesians 1:1-4 &c. Why? Because it makes out God to actually be God.

Somehow they cannot stand that truth.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
It's funny they act like they just don't know if regeneration or faith came first, but then argue against it vehemently elsewhere saying it had to be us that did it by our believing, then, because of that, God saved us.

The fact is they cannot stand the fact that a person has to be made alive before faith and salvation via regeneration, Ephesians 1:1-4 &c. Why? Because it makes out God to actually be God.

Somehow they cannot stand that truth.
I think sometimes people have only attended places where they are trying to be seeker sensitive. What sounds softer is understood as a more "loving" message.Telling men that Adam was only wounded slightly in the fall, opens the door in their thinking to tell adam he has full ability to let God know what he has accepted or rejected . Then God who is only a spectator in that scenario can adjust to man.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You said, "If anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does." So I take that to mean that "faith" is not a necessary condition of salvation, despite Paul's declaration that it is in Rom 3:22, saying, "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Faith/belief precede righteousness/salvation being given.

Doug
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The chicken came first.

Probably!

Regeneration comes first.

Considering that we have no record of anyone making such a claim in the first two and a half centuries, and certainly nothing systematic or widespread for the first 16 centuries, I have my doubts both historically and biblically that this is a true statement.

Both biblical

I'm not aware of any mention of chickens in the Genesis account, but there is a reasonable probability that the chicken came first- though that just the logical inference if assumptions that the original objects of creation were all created as functioning adults are true. But these are merely assumptions, not verbatim facts!

There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!) Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.

no philosophical input necessary.

If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?

Then I understand you correctly. brightfame52 doesn't think having faith is a necessary condition for salvation! I'm beginning to think you are a hyper-Calvinistic proponent with a non-equal view of the traditional 5-solas of Reformed thought! Interesting.


Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Please note, the poster I'm responding to has me on "ignore".
So he will likely not see this post unless someone else quotes it, or raises the same objections.

There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!)

"T'aint So!" is not a valid rebuttal.

Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.

I find this to be 100% unBiblical.
And I notice this poster has not provided any Biblical argument.

I found the phrase "born again" in John 3:3, 3:7, 1 Pet. 1:3, and 1 Pet. 1:23.

And NONE of these passages teach that "believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding" it.



If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.

So you just admitted that "faith prior to being born again" is "not a biblical theology construct".

Congratulations! ;)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Then I understand you correctly. brightfame52 doesn't think having faith is a necessary condition for salvation! I'm beginning to think you are a hyper-Calvinistic proponent with a non-equal view of the traditional 5-solas of Reformed thought! Interesting.


Doug
So you have on record what I stated. !
 

Iconoclast

Active member
God does not say he made eggs, but rather the animals;
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.



Considering that we have no record of anyone making such a claim in the first two and a half centuries, and certainly nothing systematic or widespread for the first 16 centuries, I have my doubts both historically and biblically that this is a true statement.



I'm not aware of any mention of chickens in the Genesis account, but there is a reasonable probability that the chicken came first- though that just the logical inference if assumptions that the original objects of creation were all created as functioning adults are true. But these are merely assumptions, not verbatim facts!


No Doug , they are facts as written in Genesis1...every winged fowl is very clear as Adam was told to name the animals.




There is equally nothing that explicitly says regeneration is the first event in the soteriological protocol. (And 1John 5:1 doesn't either from a grammatical pov!) Over and over again, believing is portrayed as the precipitous event immediately preceding being born again and receiving life spiritually.
eph2:1


If there is no direct and explicit biblical evidence that says X is true then the argument is made from a logically derived implication, which is a philosophical construct, not a biblical theology construct.
This is philosophical nonsense that avoids what scripture teaches.being quickened is regeneration.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I have stated over and over that if anyone makes faith, repentance, believing, confession, water baptism a condition to get saved, they're promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. And NO NO NO Faith is not a condition to get save, that promotes salvation by works. Get the picture now sir ?
This is where you go too far my friend. Faith isn't a work, it is Gods gift.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
This is where you go too far my friend. Faith isn't a work, it is Gods gift.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Faith becomes a work when anyone makes it a condition to get saved. If you believe that friend, you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Faith becomes a work when anyone makes it a condition to get saved. If you believe that friend, you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does.
Faith is a gift of God, we both agree. But this faith is never dormant, meaning it is given to the elect, they exercise it and are saved. Ppl are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the vehicle through which grace flows.
 
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