Dead Works

eternomade

Well-known member
Any work that seeks to establish righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thoughts?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Any work that seeks to establish righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thoughts?
1) Any Work that seeks to establish Righteousness outside of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; because Paul affirms there are Works we're Created/Born Again to do; IE Teach, Preach, "Helps", etc by the use of these specific Spiritual Gifts...

2) James says to show him our Faith by showing him the Post Salvific Works we were re-created for. James was one of the Pillars of the early Church, and sent Paul to the Gentiles. Obviously Paul and James agreed about Post Salvific Works, or James wouldn't have sent him to the Gentiles. Paul and James agreed we are Born Again to do Good Works which are Fruit; and we are known by our Fruit. James and Paul agreed we should prove our Faith to people...
 
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eternomade

Well-known member
1) Any Work that seeks to establish Righteousness outside of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; because Paul affirms there are Works we're Created/Born Again to do; IE Teach, Preach, "Helps", etc by the use of these specific Spiritual Gifts...
I agree here.
2) James says to show him our Faith by showing him the Post Salvific Works we were re-created for. James was one of the Pillars of the early Church, and sent Paul to the Gentiles. Obviously Paul and James agreed about Post Salvific Works, or James wouldn't have sent him to the Gentiles. Paul and James agreed we are Born Again to do Good Works which are Fruit; and we are known by our Fruit. James and Paul agreed we should prove our Faith to people...
We don't agree here. I do not see the fruit here as assurance but rather like you said in closing "we are known by our fruit". If our faith has no fruit, it is dead. The definition of fruit and where it comes from is very important. I think we agree on this. I think our disagreement is on who the works are for.

For example, if an unbeliever comes up to me and asks me about why I seem different to people, I dont explain to them that I obey the law. I explain to them that God granted me faith to believe the Gospel, therefore saving me. Because of this, I want to obey His commands(show love) but I never conflate the law with grace. I do not deceive myself(in thinking that my works can provide assurance) but rather my fruit is how unbelievers see Christ. Hopefully this makes sense.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I agree here.

We don't agree here. I do not see the fruit here as assurance but rather like you said in closing "we are known by our fruit". If our faith has no fruit, it is dead. The definition of fruit and where it comes from is very important. I think we agree on this. I think our disagreement is on who the works are for.

For example, if an unbeliever comes up to me and asks me about why I seem different to people, I dont explain to them that I obey the law. I explain to them that God granted me faith to believe the Gospel, therefore saving me. Because of this, I want to obey His commands(show love) but I never conflate the law with grace. I do not deceive myself(in thinking that my works can provide assurance) but rather my fruit is how unbelievers see Christ. Hopefully this makes sense.
Yes, we agree. I would add that in a sense our Fruit is for us, God and the Lost. Our Fruit is for ourselves because it is also Gold, Silver and Precious Stones; our Heavenly Reward. Our Fruit is for God because we cast our Crowns at Christ's feet where they belong. Our Fruit is for the Lost so that they can Taste and See that God is Good...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I agree here.

We don't agree here. I do not see the fruit here as assurance but rather like you said in closing "we are known by our fruit". If our faith has no fruit, it is dead. The definition of fruit and where it comes from is very important. I think we agree on this. I think our disagreement is on who the works are for.

For example, if an unbeliever comes up to me and asks me about why I seem different to people, I dont explain to them that I obey the law. I explain to them that God granted me faith to believe the Gospel, therefore saving me. Because of this, I want to obey His commands(show love) but I never conflate the law with grace. I do not deceive myself(in thinking that my works can provide assurance) but rather my fruit is how unbelievers see Christ. Hopefully this makes sense.
Proverbs 11:30; The Fruit of the Righteous is a Tree of Life...
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Any work that seeks to establish righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ ...
I agree if you define 'work' as 'establishing righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ'.
The works of the Law does not establish righteousness.

... or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
One works out their salvation; one does not work to prove their righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Any work that seeks to establish righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thoughts?
As a Calvinist, and as a Sola Scripturist; would you say that Saint James and Saint Paul we're in perfect agreement regarding the Epistles?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I agree if you define 'work' as 'establishing righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ'.
The works of the Law does not establish righteousness.
Is it sinful to believe in the life, death and resurection of Jesus Christ if God has not granted you faith in the Gospel?
One works out their salvation; one does not work to prove their righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you mind explaining this a bit more? I don't understand.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So, the Lord Jesus Christ?
I mean the Fruit of the Righteous, as in Post Salvific Works we were created for; is a Tree of Life. Of course our Fruit is due to being in the True Vine, but it is our Fruit, since because of it we are rewarded with Gold, Silver and Precious Stones...
 
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eternomade

Well-known member
As a Calvinist, and as a Sola Scripturist; would you say that Saint James and Saint Paul we're in perfect agreement regarding the Epistles?
Yes! I think we have a different understanding of repentance maybe...

I see repentance as a change in direction, and usually Bibilical repentance I see as a change in mind.

For example, I believe justification takes place when God grants a person faith. He changes their mind about the Gospel. They go from not believing to believing. I believe sanctification is the same. All of salvation is a work of God, therefore my works were prepared by Him before I existed.
 
G

guest1

Guest
As a Calvinist, and as a Sola Scripturist; would you say that Saint James and Saint Paul we're in perfect agreement regarding the Epistles?
I do !

I would think James had the same respect for Paul that Peter showed in 2 Pet 3. The disagreements are with theologians not the Apostles.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Yes! I think we have a different understanding of repentance maybe...

I see repentance as a change in direction, and usually Bibilical repentance I see as a change in mind.

For example, I believe justification takes place when God grants a person faith. He changes their mind about the Gospel. They go from not believing to believing. I believe sanctification is the same. All of salvation is a work of God, therefore my works were prepared by Him before I existed.
No, we perfectly agree here...

God is Providential and Sovereign...
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Is it sinful to believe in the life, death and resurection of Jesus Christ if God has not granted you faith in the Gospel?
Scripture speaks of God granting repentance, not granting faith.


One works out their salvation; one does not work to prove their righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you mind explaining this a bit more? I don't understand.
You stated:
... or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. ...
We're you not asking if one had to establish works to prove confidence in Christ's righteousness?
I believe we work out our salvation, not work to prove our confidence.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Scripture speaks of God granting repentance, not granting faith.
Can you explain the difference between repentance and faith? What are you turning from and to?
We're you not asking if one had to establish works to prove confidence in Christ's righteousness?
I believe we work out our salvation, not work to prove our confidence.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I was just giving a Biblical definition of "dead works" and seeing if anyone agreed. What does it mean to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Any work that seeks to establish righteousness outside of the Lord Jesus Christ or any work that established or prove confidence that one is in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thoughts?

No, it is anything which is not this:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
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