DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

I agree. Worship is for God alone.

There is no contradiction between worshipping God alone and in asking other Christians to pray to God for us.



Pray for us. 1 Thes 5:25, 2 Thes 3:1, Heb 13:18.

Not sure about EO, but RC's worship the Eucharist (which is a created thing).
 
Not sure about EO, but RC's worship the Eucharist (which is a created thing).

Was it idolatry when people fell down and worshipped Jesus during his ministry? Were they worshipping flesh and blood?

Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. John 9:38 NKJV
 
The Lord Jesus is the Creator (God) so it was not idolatry.

The same cannot be said of a piece of bread.
The same is true for God's presence in the Eucharist. Catholics and Orthodox worship God not a piece of bread.

Was Daniel worshipping a wooden box with golden statues when he knelt and prayed towards the temple in Jerusalem?

Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. Daniel 6:10
 
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Catholics and Orthodox worship God not a piece of bread.

Was Daniel worshipping a wooden box with golden statues when he knelt and prayed towards the temple in Jerusalem?


It is a piece of bread (a creation) which you claim is God - this is idolatry (Romans 1:25).

In answer to your question: No. Just like I am not worshiping other Christians by singing "to" them about the Lord (Ephesians 5:19).
 
It is a piece of bread (a creation) which you claim is God - this is idolatry (Romans 1:25).

In answer to your question: No. Just like I am not worshiping other Christians by singing "to" them about the Lord (Ephesians 5:19).
According to Paul, the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

Asking fellow Christians to pray for us is not idolatry. That is true for those in heaven as well as those on earth.
 
According to Paul, the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

But not literally Christ fr it is a creation and is therefore not to be worshiped.

Asking fellow Christians to pray for us is not idolatry.

Agree.


That is true for those in heaven as well as those on earth.
Disagree, because when you ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for you, you just don't think it within your heart and expect them to know it.
The reason for this is God alone fully knows the hearts so He alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).


When those who are departed are addressed many times this is done in silence and yet you and others expect them to hear you. Thus, you ascribe what God "alone" knows unto them.
This is idolatry.
 
Disagree, because when you ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for you, you just don't think it within your heart and expect them to know it.
The reason for this is God alone fully knows the hearts so He alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).


When those who are departed are addressed many times this is done in silence and yet you and others expect them to hear you. Thus, you ascribe what God "alone" knows unto them.
This is idolatry.

Revelation 7:13-17 records a conversation between John and one of the elders in heaven.

Since it was a vision, John was not communicating with spoken words.

Was that idolatry?
 
Revelation 7:13-17 records a conversation between John and one of the elders in heaven.

Since it was a vision, John was not communicating with spoken words.

How do you know?

Does that mean when Cornelius was experiencing a vision he wasn't communicating with spoken words (Acts 10:3-8)?
 
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How do you know?

Does that mean when Cornelius was experiencing a vision he wasn't communicating with spoken words (Acts 10:3-8)?
In that case, the vision was of an angel who appeared in a room with Cornelius. Revelation is about John going to heaven and interacting with angels and saints there.

Based previous posts, John was either committing idolatry or violating Old Testament commands against necromancy. Which was it?
 
In that case, the vision was of an angel who appeared in a room with Cornelius. Revelation is about John going to heaven and interacting with angels and saints there.

Irrelevant, because both are still visions.


Based previous posts, John was either committing idolatry or violating Old Testament commands against necromancy. Which was it?

Neither.

God allows communication to others in visions that He approves of.
Now for you and/or others to try to use this as an excuse for praying to others besides God is a very poor excuse to justify your sin.
 
Irrelevant, because both are still visions.




Neither.

God allows communication to others in visions that He approves of.
Now for you and/or others to try to use this as an excuse for praying to others besides God is a very poor excuse to justify your sin

If any communication between humans and spirits is impossible then why is "discerning of spirits" considered a gift?

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. 1 Cor 12:7-11

The angels and departed saints are united with Christians on earth. Asking them to pray for us a good thing.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12:22-24
 
Exactly!

Revelation 5:8
~ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Right. "Prayers of the saints", not "prayers to the saints". Sorry, but there's nothing in that verse that says we can pray to dead people.
 
But nothing about praying to dead "saints".
Those in Heaven are not dead, at least they seem alive and well in the Scriptures.

Right. "Prayers of the saints", not "prayers to the saints". Sorry, but there's nothing in that verse that says we can pray to dead people.
Right. "Prayers of the saints" are being received by those in Heaven, "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp".

Verse, please.
Look back in the thread. I posted them more than once ;)
 
The only two people the Bible records as going to Heaven without dying are Enoch and Elijah.
The Scriptures also record Moses speaking with Jesus. Moses died, yet, Christ is not speaking with a corpse.

So, nothing, huh?
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Guess you just don't want to go back to see my posts lol!

I'll do the leg work. Post #47 page 3.

One thing is obvious, you have no care for the Orthodox perspective. You wish to prove others wrong, which by the way, trying to prove one wrong, is not how one wins souls to Christ. I state the Orthodox position and stick to that. It's not a "gotcha son" thing for me. Throwing Scripture verses back and forth as if they are grenades does not build one up. I'm not trying to change anyones mind.
 
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