Not sure about EO, but RC's worship the Eucharist (which is a created thing).
DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?
- Thread starter BornAgainRN
- Start date
Not sure about EO, but RC's worship the Eucharist (which is a created thing).
Theophilos
Well-known member
Was it idolatry when people fell down and worshipped Jesus during his ministry? Were they worshipping flesh and blood?
Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. John 9:38 NKJV
The Lord Jesus is the Creator (God) so it was not idolatry.
The same cannot be said of a piece of bread.
Theophilos
Well-known member
The same is true for God's presence in the Eucharist. Catholics and Orthodox worship God not a piece of bread.
Was Daniel worshipping a wooden box with golden statues when he knelt and prayed towards the temple in Jerusalem?
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It is a piece of bread (a creation) which you claim is God - this is idolatry (Romans 1:25).
In answer to your question: No. Just like I am not worshiping other Christians by singing "to" them about the Lord (Ephesians 5:19).
Theophilos
Well-known member
According to Paul, the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.
Asking fellow Christians to pray for us is not idolatry. That is true for those in heaven as well as those on earth.
But not literally Christ fr it is a creation and is therefore not to be worshiped.
Agree.
Disagree, because when you ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for you, you just don't think it within your heart and expect them to know it.
The reason for this is God alone fully knows the hearts so He alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).
When those who are departed are addressed many times this is done in silence and yet you and others expect them to hear you. Thus, you ascribe what God "alone" knows unto them.
This is idolatry.
Theophilos
Well-known member
Revelation 7:13-17 records a conversation between John and one of the elders in heaven.
Since it was a vision, John was not communicating with spoken words.
Was that idolatry?
How do you know?
Does that mean when Cornelius was experiencing a vision he wasn't communicating with spoken words (Acts 10:3-8)?
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Theophilos
Well-known member
In that case, the vision was of an angel who appeared in a room with Cornelius. Revelation is about John going to heaven and interacting with angels and saints there.
Based previous posts, John was either committing idolatry or violating Old Testament commands against necromancy. Which was it?
Irrelevant, because both are still visions.
Neither.
God allows communication to others in visions that He approves of.
Now for you and/or others to try to use this as an excuse for praying to others besides God is a very poor excuse to justify your sin.
Theophilos
Well-known member
If any communication between humans and spirits is impossible then why is "discerning of spirits" considered a gift?
The angels and departed saints are united with Christians on earth. Asking them to pray for us a good thing.
I never made that claim.
If they were to appear to you then ok, but to pray to them (that takes place when you are not in their physical presence) is a sin (1 Kings 8:38-39).
But nothing about praying to dead "saints".
Right. "Prayers of the saints", not "prayers to the saints". Sorry, but there's nothing in that verse that says we can pray to dead people.
Verse, please.
Arch Stanton
Well-known member
posted in this thread
ziapueblo
Active member
Those in Heaven are not dead, at least they seem alive and well in the Scriptures.
Right. "Prayers of the saints" are being received by those in Heaven, "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp".
Look back in the thread. I posted them more than once
The only two people the Bible records as going to Heaven without dying are Enoch and Elijah.
So, nothing, huh?Look back in the thread. I posted them more than once
ziapueblo
Active member
The Scriptures also record Moses speaking with Jesus. Moses died, yet, Christ is not speaking with a corpse.
Guess you just don't want to go back to see my posts lol!
I'll do the leg work. Post #47 page 3.
One thing is obvious, you have no care for the Orthodox perspective. You wish to prove others wrong, which by the way, trying to prove one wrong, is not how one wins souls to Christ. I state the Orthodox position and stick to that. It's not a "gotcha son" thing for me. Throwing Scripture verses back and forth as if they are grenades does not build one up. I'm not trying to change anyones mind.