DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

[Mik]

Sure they can. Those in Heaven are bringing the prayers of those on Earth to God, Revelation 5:8.

if you think Rev 5:8 is talking about you trying to contact the dead in prayer. you need to study that passage in context. Deuteronomy 18:10-13 still applies.

This is sorcery, not asking for the intercession of the Body of Christ in Heaven.

Of course it is. You are trying to call up the dead.
Deut 18:10-13 '10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. 13 You shall be [a]blameless before the Lord your God."

Nice try. You know not of what you speak of when it comes to the Orthodox Church.

Of course I do. Been to one a few times. Lots of icons. Forbidden pics of things in Heaven.

Sorry, not ignoring the Word of God here

Of course you are. No trying to contact the dead is the Word. You ignore it. Or have an excuse to ignore it.

Not at all. God commanded Moses to use and make images. Images were in the Temple also

Commanded Moses, not your denomination. Your building is not the Old Testament Temple of Israel.

Nice try. You know nothing of the intercession of the Saints. It is very Biblical.

Wow. Trying to contact the dead is really funny to you. But not to God.
Deut 18:10-13 '10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. 13 You shall be [a]blameless before the Lord your God."

Why do you not trust the Scriptures? Why do you follow the traditions of men? I mean, the early Christians asked for the intercession of those in Heaven for 1500 years.

If that is true (you haven't shown that, don't really care) then false teaching entered the as early as 1500 years. Not surprising. Paul warned that false teaching was already entering during his lifetime.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

hearing through the word of Christ --- 👇

'This is my body'

So says Roman Catholic TRADITION. Your "Tradition" MEANS NOTHING to those of us who have nothing to do with the various Catholic denominations, and their paradigms.

 

[ziapueblo]

if you think Rev 5:8 is talking about you trying to contact the dead in prayer.

Contact the dead? Not the way you are thinking obviously. I follow what the Christian Church has always done.

Of course it is. You are trying to call up the dead.

Call up the dead? 🤣 Not even close. Sorry!

Lots of icons.

And?

Your building is not the Old Testament Temple of Israel.

Correct but it is obvious that images where in the temple, a place of worship. These images were not worshiped, just as icons are not worshiped. You just think they are for some odd reason. Every Orthodox Christian in the world laughs when someone says we worship images because it is not true. We only worship God. You really need to listen to the hymns we sing whether it be form an Orthros service, Vespers, Divine Liturgy or the numerous other services we have. All point straight to God. I posted some of our Apolitikia for particular saints. No where do we sing "save us from hell St so and so, or, we worship you St so and so."

Wow. Trying to contact the dead is really funny to you.

Asking them for out prayers, just as in Revelation, is not "contacting" them or trying to conger them up. Completely different.

But not to God.

Always God! When I ask someone to pray for me or if I pray for someone, its always God.

If that is true (you haven't shown that, don't really care)

I have, you just don't care and don't interpret the Scriptures as the Church always had. That's fine.

Paul warned that false teaching was already entering during his lifetime.

And continues

 

[Theophilos]

So says Roman Catholic TRADITION. Your "Tradition" MEANS NOTHING to those of us who have nothing to do with the various Catholic denominations, and their paradigms.

It is also repeated many times in scripture:

This is my body. Mat 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24

The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him . . John 6:52-56 NKJV

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It is also repeated many times in scripture:

This is my body. Mat 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24

SO to be a Christian you have to be a vampire cannibal???? You DO know that the consumption of blood is Biblically forbidden, don't you???

 

[Theophilos]

SO to be a Christian you have to be a vampire cannibal???? You DO know that the consumption of blood is Biblically forbidden, don't you???

The Gospel of John describes just such a reaction from some of the disciples before they left him:

For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. . .
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. John 6:55-66

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Gospel of John describes just such a reaction from some of the disciples before they left him:

Yup, and they made the same foolish mistake that Catholics do, failing to understand the difference between SPIRITUAL things, and "Physical things". Catholic "Tradition" fails in the same way.

We, in the NON-Catholic world, are the one who "do it in remembrance of HIM" just like HE told us to do.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Yup, and they made the same foolish mistake that Catholics do, failing to understand the difference between SPIRITUAL things, and "Physical things". Catholic "Tradition" fails in the same way.

We, in the NON-Catholic world, are the one who "do it in remembrance of HIM" just like HE told us to do.

The term “remembrance” used at the Last Supper in Greek is “anamnesis” which is only used four times in the New Testament and each refers to a sacrificial offering of both Old and New Covenant (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25, Heb 10:3). The Greek word for remembering someone or something in memorial is “mnemosunon” (Mat. 26:13, Mark 14:9, and Acts 10:4). Jesus commands his Apostles to do this “anamnesis” sacrificial action at the Last Supper and not merely a “mnemosunon” symbolic memorial action. This is demonstrated as being practiced by the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 11 and is also alluded to in Hebrews 13:10 when it speaks about Christians having an “altar”, which by definition is used for sacrificial offerings and not for “remembering” (mnemosunon) a previous sacrifice, in which they partake in (See also 1 Cor 10:16-17).

It’s difficult to have a purely spiritual “belief” or symbolic understanding of John 6 when everything around it that pertains to Jesus’ words have a very literal physical meaning not only in their immediate fulfillment, but also within the early practice of the Christians in obedience to Christ’s command of “Do this in remembrance of me”. [CA]

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Consider the first clue, Jesus’ command to “Do this.” The Greek verb for “do,” poieo, can be literally translated as “offer” in the sense of offering a sacrifice.

For example, in Exodus 29:36-41 of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament used by Jesus and the apostles) poieo is used five times in reference to Moses offering sacrifice as part of the ritual for ordaining Aaron and his sons as priests:

• “Every day you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] a bull as a sin offering for atonement” (v. 36).
• “Now this is what you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] upon the altar: two lambs a year old day by day continually” (v. 38).
• “One lamb you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer in the evening” (v. 39).
• “And the other lamb you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] in the evening, and shall offer [Greek—poieseis] with it a cereal offering and its libation, as in the morning, for a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the Lord” (v. 41).

The use of poieo in Leviticus 9:7 makes it clear that Moses transferred this priestly duty to Aaron and his sons. The passage reads:

Then Moses said to Aaron, ‘Draw near to the altar, and offer [Greek, poieson] your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement for yourself and for the people; and bring the offering of the people, and make atonement for them; as the Lord has commanded.

In light of this Old Testament use of poieo (offer), it’s reasonable to conclude that Jesus was commanding his apostles to offer the Last Supper as a sacrifice. And since offering sacrifice is a priestly function, it follows that Jesus instituted his apostles as his New Testament ministerial priests.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The term “remembrance” used at the Last Supper in Greek is “anamnesis” which is only used four times in the New Testament and each refers to a sacrificial offering of both Old and New Covenant (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25, Heb 10:3). The Greek word for remembering someone or something in memorial is “mnemosunon” (Mat. 26:13, Mark 14:9, and Acts 10:4). Jesus commands his Apostles to do this “anamnesis” sacrificial action at the Last Supper and not merely a “mnemosunon” symbolic memorial action. This is demonstrated as being practiced by the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 11 and is also alluded to in Hebrews 13:10 when it speaks about Christians having an “altar”, which by definition is used for sacrificial offerings and not for “remembering” (mnemosunon) a previous sacrifice, in which they partake in (See also 1 Cor 10:16-17).

It’s difficult to have a purely spiritual “belief” or symbolic understanding of John 6 when everything around it that pertains to Jesus’ words have a very literal physical meaning not only in their immediate fulfillment, but also within the early practice of the Christians in obedience to Christ’s command of “Do this in remembrance of me”. [CA]

----------------------------------------------------------------
Consider the first clue, Jesus’ command to “Do this.” The Greek verb for “do,” poieo, can be literally translated as “offer” in the sense of offering a sacrifice.

For example, in Exodus 29:36-41 of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament used by Jesus and the apostles) poieo is used five times in reference to Moses offering sacrifice as part of the ritual for ordaining Aaron and his sons as priests:

• “Every day you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] a bull as a sin offering for atonement” (v. 36).
• “Now this is what you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] upon the altar: two lambs a year old day by day continually” (v. 38).
• “One lamb you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer in the evening” (v. 39).
• “And the other lamb you shall offer [Greek—poieseis] in the evening, and shall offer [Greek—poieseis] with it a cereal offering and its libation, as in the morning, for a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the Lord” (v. 41).

The use of poieo in Leviticus 9:7 makes it clear that Moses transferred this priestly duty to Aaron and his sons. The passage reads:

Then Moses said to Aaron, ‘Draw near to the altar, and offer [Greek, poieson] your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement for yourself and for the people; and bring the offering of the people, and make atonement for them; as the Lord has commanded.

In light of this Old Testament use of poieo (offer), it’s reasonable to conclude that Jesus was commanding his apostles to offer the Last Supper as a sacrifice. And since offering sacrifice is a priestly function, it follows that Jesus instituted his apostles as his New Testament ministerial priests.

NICE work around!!! MEaningless, of course. Ignored.

 

[Arch Stanton]

NICE work around!!! MEaningless, of course. Ignored.

straight from your own words though 👇

We, in the NON-Catholic world, are the one who "do it in remembrance of HIM" just like HE told us to do.