DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

You haven't shown. You have contradicted what 1 Kings 8:38-39 teaches.
What does that have to do with intercession? I showed from Revelation that those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth and that they take the prayers from those on Earth in the form of incense (does you Church use incense?) to God.

That's a huge problem which leads to confusion and false teaching.
Actually not, since this is a Biblical teaching.

It's the biblical approach (Acts 17:11).
It's not the ONLY approach.

Again, using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone?
 
What does that have to do with intercession?

Because you and others expect them to hear silent prayers.

I showed from Revelation that those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth

You never showed they were prayed to.

and that they take the prayers from those on Earth in the form of incense (does you Church use incense?) to God.

Still no prayers rendered to them.

Actually not, since this is a Biblical teaching.

And yet nowhere in the Bible teaches this blasphemy.

It's not the ONLY approach.

An assertion without proof.


Again, using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone?

See the OP for the topic at hand. I know prayers to others isn't going well so you are trying change the subject.
 
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Because you and others expect them to hear silent prayers.
Obviously they can because they are bringing bowls of incense (prayers of those on earth) to God.

You never showed they were prayed to.
They are interceding on our behalf (taking the prayers of those on earth to God).

And yet nowhere in the Bible teaches this blasphemy.
What is blasphamy?

An assertion without proof.
Show me!

See the OP for the topic at hand. I know prayers to others isn't going well so you are trying change the subject.
Actually, its going very well! The Scriptures are clear along with the historical teaching of the Church.

When it comes to the Bible alone, this is actually the root of the differences between Christian faith traditions, so it is always part of the subject!

Blessed feast of the Three Holy Hierarchs, Sts Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom!

Apolytikion: First Mode

~ The three most great luminaries of the Three-Sun Divinity have illumined all of the world with the rays of doctrines divine and true; they are the sweetly-flowing rivers of wisdom, who with godly knowledge have watered all creation in clear and mighty streams: The great and sacred Basil, and the Theologian, wise Gregory, together with the renowned John, the famed Chrysostom of golden speech. Let us all who love their divinely-wise words come together, honoring them with hymns; for ceaselessly they offer entreaty for us to the Trinity.
 
Obviously they can because they are bringing bowls of incense (prayers of those on earth) to God.

Doesn't necessitate they fully know them. In fact, they can't because they don't fully know the hearts from which these prayers sprang forth (1 Kings 8:38-39).
 
Bow down and SERVE them. That is the context. Orthodox DO NOT worship icons. I am tired of non-Orthodox telling us what they think they know about us! If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, learn from Orthodox sources. I've go plenty of good ones to share.

There are plenty of examples of bowing in Scripture that is not worship and is out of respect and perfectly fine (again, just as Orthodox bow to in icon out of respect for the person it depicts):

2 Kings 2:15-16
~ 15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him over against them, they said, “The spirit of Eli′jah rests on Eli′sha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 And they said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men; pray, let them go, and seek your master; it may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.” 17 But when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, “Send.” They sent therefore fifty men; and for three days they sought him but did not find him. 18 And they came back to him, while he tarried at Jericho, and he said to them, “Did I not say to you, Do not go?”

Is Elisha being worshiped by these folks? I mean, they bowed before him. I am surprised that for one, God didn't strike them dead where they stand and second, that Elisha did not stop them from bowing before him.

2 Sammuel 1:2
~ On the third day, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul, with his clothes torn and dust on his head. And it came about when he came to David that he fell to the ground and prostrated himself.

Is Saul worshiping David?

Genesis 33:3
~ But he himself passed on ahead of them and bowed down to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

Holy smokes, Jacob bows down 7 times before his brother! Is this worship?

Genesis 49:8
~ Judah, your brothers shall praise you;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father’s sons shall bow down to you.

I mean, this is God speaking to Judah telling him that his brothers will "bow down" to him.

Exodus 18:7
~ Then Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and he bowed down and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare and went into the tent.

Another example of worship, Moses worshiping his father-in-law!

I mean, I could go on and on here. The context is bowing AND serving idols, not bowing!


As do Orthodox Christians ;)
No bow down before them.

EX 23:24

Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices.

Lev 26;1

Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

ex 20:4+

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

No it is clear bow down to them or before or worship them.
 
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Actually, no. What the Church teaches does not contradict the Bible, which I have shown. You may not agree with it as we all see the Scriptures through the eyes of a particular tradition. That's right, how we interpret Scripture is tradition.

Orthodox Christians don't go around saying, "where is this or that in the Bible"? That is a very Western Christian approach.

So again I ask, because you obviously believe that the Bible and the Bible alone is all one needs, using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone.
You are not to debate non RCs are you or has this been moved. But it makes no difference. No bowing before statues or images is clear.
 
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Doesn't necessitate they fully know them. In fact, they can't because they don't fully know the hearts from which these prayers sprang forth (1 Kings 8:38-39).
Yet they bring the prayers of those on earth to God, so they know something.
 
EX 23:24

Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices.
This is in the context of worshiping them. Orthodox do not worship images.

Lev 26;1

Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
Yet God instructs Moses to set up images on the Ark of the Covenant and Solomon erects images in the Temple. This has to do with worshiping false Gods.

ex 20:4+

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

No it is clear bow down to them or before or worship them.
This is all in the context of worship. We see that there is bowing all over the place in Scripture, as I showed above. I only provided a handful of countless examples of people bowing to others. Again, its the worship of an idol, not bowing in general.

No bowing before statues or images is clear.
AND WORSHIPING THEM! This is the context, bowing and worship. Not bowing out of respect, which is all over the Scriptures. Again, as I pointed out in another post.
 
This is in the context of worshiping them. Orthodox do not worship images.


Yet God instructs Moses to set up images on the Ark of the Covenant and Solomon erects images in the Temple. This has to do with worshiping false Gods.


This is all in the context of worship. We see that there is bowing all over the place in Scripture, as I showed above. I only provided a handful of countless examples of people bowing to others. Again, its the worship of an idol, not bowing in general.


AND WORSHIPING THEM! This is the context, bowing and worship. Not bowing out of respect, which is all over the Scriptures. Again, as I pointed out in another post.
No you changed it to worshipping them. I am following what scripture clearly says about not making them for a start and not to bow down before them.
 
Wrong! Orthodox Christians do no worship them.
Wrong You brought in worship I didn't. I was quoting scripture that says do not make them, do not bow before them. Then you decide to carry on about worship. I did not write scripture.
 
Why not? Those in Heaven have full knowledge of whats going on down here on earth.
Prove that claim, it would be interesting.

Those with bowls does not show that those where prayers made to them, they could have been carrying the prayers of saints to the Lord. You do not know exactly what is in those bowls.
 
Prove that claim, it would be interesting.
I have! Revelation has show many times that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth. This has also been a solid teaching of the Christian faith until roughly 500 years ago.

Those with bowls does not show that those where prayers made to them, they could have been carrying the prayers of saints to the Lord.
Yes, they are carrying the prayers of those on earth to the Lord. This is what the Orthodox Christian faith calls interceding on our behalf.

You do not know exactly what is in those bowls.
You are correct, I don't know.
 
See 1 Kings 8:38-39.
Yes, and? What does this have to do with intercessory prayer?

When the Old Testament says that only God knows the hearts of men, it is speaking with reference to people on Earth. People here on Earth do not know the hearts of men. Further, humans were not yet admitted to Heaven when the Old Testament was written. Finally, the common Orthodox theological opinion is that it is God Himself who lets the saints know our prayers, as has always been the view and the Scriptural interpretation of the verses I have posted from Revelation. As Orthodox, we believe that "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" whom we believe bring our prayers to God.

You obviously will not change my opinion, as I am not here to change yours, only explain the Orthodox view.

God bless!
 
Yes, and? What does this have to do with intercessory prayer?

See my first response.


When the Old Testament says that only God knows the hearts of men, it is speaking with reference to people on Earth.

Of course, and it is telling people that this is what God "alone" knows. In fact, knowing the hearts of all means that God is omniscient. Just as Sheol and Abaadon are known by Him, so too are the hearts of all. This is because His "eyes are in every place." If others can be prayed to then others besides God are omniscient (i.e., they know the hearts of all)

Proverbs 15:3, 11
(3) The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
Watching the evil and the good.
(11) Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD,
How much more the hearts of men!

Job 26:6
Naked is Sheol before Him,
And Abaddon has no covering.
2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His.


You obviously will not change my opinion,

I can show you what the Bible says and pray to God to show you the truth, but to change your opinion is the job of the Holy Spirit.

explain the Orthodox view.

Which goes against what the Bible teaches.
 
I can show you what the Bible says and pray to God to show you the truth, but to change your opinion is the job of the Holy Spirit.
So can I ;) along with the Scriptural commentary of the first 1500 years of Christian belief.

Which goes against what the Bible teaches.
Actually, I doesn't!

Honest question, have you ever been to any type of Orthodox service? Divine Liturgy, Orthros, Vespers, the hours of prayer?
 
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