Really it does and you offer up not one verse to support that claim.
DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?
- Thread starter BornAgainRN
- Start date
ziapueblo
Active member
I can say the same
ziapueblo
Active member
I have offered up many verses, you just don't interpret them they way the Orthodox do.
I have not seen one which states the dead know what or care about what is happening to those alive in this plane.
ziapueblo
Active member
I disagree, and that is fine.
ziapueblo
Active member
From the third post of this thread:
From the Orthodox perceptive, and the Catholic one, we can look to Revelation 5:8, where St John is telling us that 24 elders are offering bowls of incense. In context, it is revealed that these are the prayers of the Christians on Earth. Obviously, those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth.
When one looks at Revelation 6:9, we see that the 5th seal has been opened and under the alter the souls “who had been slain for the word of God,” and they cry out, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” They are aware that their enemies are still living on Earth.
An elder tells St John in Revelation 7:13-14 that the ones “clothed in white robes” are “they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” The elder has knowledge that these Christians were martyrs and have gone through tribulation.
There is a “great multitude” (Revelation 19:1-4) singing praises to God for judging “the harlot” and avenging “the blood of his servants.” When St John introduces this great multitude in Revelation 7:9 standing before the throne and before the Lamb, he specifies that the multitude is “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues.” Therefore, the great multitude that John sees singing praises to God consists of conscious human souls.
Oh they do not support your view at all. God has always judged and avenged what happens on earth. Those marytrs are dead no longer on earth, so they are clearly talking about their time on earth. So no that does not mean they understand what is happening at all. That is reading into the text what you want it to say. They are clearly talking about their time on earth.
I truly hope that once I am in Heaven I do not want revenge on others and have forgotten all the evil done to me.
ziapueblo
Active member
I never said revenge, but avenging and, those in Heaven are conscious of what is happening on Earth.
Revelation 6:9-11
~ 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
These martyrs are aware that their enemies are still living on Earth since they are asking "how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
Revelation 7:13-14
~ 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The elder knows that these martyrs have "come out of the great tribulation."
Revelation 19:1-4
~ 1 After this I heard what seemed to be the mighty voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying,
“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for his judgments are true and just;
he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication,
and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3 Once more they cried,
“Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who is seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”
They are conscious of what happened to them on Earth.
As far as intercessory prayer:
Revelation 5:6-10
~ 6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; 7 and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9 and they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”
In the Orthodox Church, this is what intercessory prayer is. Our prayers, being lifted up into the Heavens and those in Heaven bring our prayers to God. No different than if I ask you or anyone else to pray for me. I obviously am not going to change your mind on this and it is not my intention to do so, just show what we Orthodox believe and why we believe it.
To me there is no difference between revenge and avenging. It is repaying a wrong. Only God can do it righteously.
Yep we are meant to do prayer for others whilst we are alive on earth and not pray to the dead. You have not made your case.
ziapueblo
Active member
I never said that those on can avenge anything, only that "the great multitude in heaven" cried "for his judgments are true and just;
he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants." Those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
From what is read is Revelation, those in heaven are not dead at all. They are actually more alive that we are and are aware of what is happening on earth. Fortunately, "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us . . ."!
I have given the Orthodox understanding, Scripturally, and have made my case. You're faith tradition does not see it that way, mine does.
Avenge is a form of revenge, I would hope in heaven that I never feel the need for that emotion at all.
Those in hell are not dead either. That is meaningless to the discussion. You have failed to make your case for praying to the dead, you have failed scripturally to do so as well.
Please show me where Jesus said to pray to anyone other than the Father, show where Mary prayed to the dead, show where Mary and the Apostles prayed to Stephen after he was martyred, show where an apostle prayed to Mary after she died or any other dead person. Then you might have a scriptural leg to stand on.
Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?
Again, Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?
ziapueblo
Active member
2 Thessalonians 2:15
~ So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The Greek here for tradition is paradosis which means, tradition. This is at times mistranslated as teaching, such as in the NIV, "stand firm and hold fast to the teachings . . ."
Why did the publishers chose to mistranslate paradosis? This is not an honest translation of the text (I think I know why).
What traditions do you "stand firm and hold fast"? I'll list them:
1) The lens you interpret Scripture
2) The number of books in your Old Testament Scriptures
3) The structure of you worship service
4) The music you play during worship
5) Many churches have Wednesday evening services (where is that in the Bible (book, chapter and verse please)?
6) How often does you church practice the Lord's Supper? Every Sunday? Twice a month? Once a month? Quarterly?
7) Sacred art or no sacred art? I've been into southern baptist churches that have zero art. I've been into southern baptist churches with art.
8) Is there an alter table at your church? My mother-in-laws baptist church has one, covered in a nice cloth with the covered with the ichthys and Chi-Rho.
You believe in tradition, just as much as we Orthodox do.
My favorite question that is never answered (I see many non-Catholics on the Catholic thread complain about Catholics not answering their questions yet this one of mine has never been answered). Using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone? This question, I believe, is very appropriate for this topic since it really is a major difference between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians.
It is only RCs and Orthodox who love the word alone. It is because they have a total misunderstanding of sola scirptura and that is because it suits there false belief that they can add and go beyond scripture, thus justifying their false beliefs that break God's commandments.
But the bible certainly says do not teach another gospel, do not add to, do not take away/ignore and do not go beyond what is in scripture. I would say everything must align with scripture. Jesus is clear about not a jot or tittle will change, this is exactly what is changed by false teachings. The scripture does put boundaries on what is acceptable. We can trust scripture, we cannot trust man. The traditions are not any old traditions but they were talking about the Jewish traditions which were biblical. Using those verses incorrectly is why churches have false traditions, it is used as a cover up for breaking commandments. I have seen many posters explain over and over again the use of sola scriptura and its importance. If we do not obey God's word and God does not change then you have anarchy and people doing as they please.
Ps 118:8
It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.
2Tim 3:16+
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Matt 5:18
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished
1 Cor 4:6
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
deut 4:6
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Rev 22:18+
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
1 Peter 1:23
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
These are just some of the verses that support the use of scripture and that things like traditions must align with scripture.
ziapueblo
Active member
Nothing the Orthodox do is in opposition to Scripture. We believe in what Christians have always believed.
Amen! Scripture alone? Not at all. One needs to back up to verse 10 where St Paul is reminded Timothy of what he learned from him and then to remember the Scriptures of his youth, the Old Testament. If this proves Scripture alone, it then would prove Old Testament Scripture alone because books of the New Testament were not even written yet.
St Paul is speaking of the Old Testament here, because many books, including some of his own epistles, were not even written yet. This does not prove Scripture alone, since St Paul speaks of keeping the Traditions that he had taught them.
You mean like how your Bible "subtracted" some Old Testament Scriptures?
St John is speaking of this books specifically.
The "word of God" is Christ.
Amen! Orthodox Tradition aligns with Scripture since Scripture itself is Tradition, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."
You don't know me. That does not answer my question. So:
'Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?'
You have no clue what I believe. That does not answer my question. So:
'Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?'
Still waiting. That does not answer my question. So:
'Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?'
ziapueblo
Active member
What does proper worship look like? Praise music with a 45 minute sermon?
Again, I did provide examples:
1) The lens in which one interpret Scripture
2) The number of books in the Old Testament Scriptures
3) The structure of worship service
4) The music played during worship
5) Many churches have Wednesday evening services (where is that in the Bible (book, chapter and verse please)?
6) How often does a church practice the Lord's Supper? Every Sunday? Twice a month? Once a month? Quarterly?
7) Sacred art or no sacred art? I've been into southern baptist churches that have zero art. I've been into southern baptist churches with art.
8) Is there an alter table at your church? My mother-in-laws baptist church has one, covered in a nice cloth with the covered with the ichthys and Chi-Rho.
Never said I did. I was just listing some examples of things that are not explicitly in the Scriptures.
Yes praying to the dead is against scripture. The use of icons is not scriptural. Please show a prayer by an apostle to the dead? Show one apostle who bowed before an icon?
I gave more than one verse to back up scripture alone, but I don't believe in scripture and nothing else that is the misunderstanding of scripture alone. You can use other sources but they MUST align with scripture. Orthodoxs like RCs misuse scripture alone. In fact, I prefer not to use the verse alone. But nothing can be added to scripture, go beyond it or take away from it. So many verses are ignored (therefore taken away) by RCC. I cannot speak for Orthodoxs as I was not brought up Orthodox.
No my bible did not subtract the OT books, those books were not considered by Jewish believers who lived in the land nor are they considered scripture by modern Jewish people. I mean those books are considered good to read but second level to scripture.
The Nt was written and spread very early on after the death of Jesus. Peter is clear Paul wrote the same as he spoke. So that is just a coverup to say the NT books were not written. Those who make that claim are trying to make out that the apostles were not honest in their writings. It does not matter the word of God is set and will not change.
We are clearly told that Jesus is the word and I did quote scripture.
Obviously not all Orthodox beliefs align with scripture otherwise we would agree about praying to the dead and icons.