DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

[Mik]

🤣🤣🤣

Go to any Orthodox worship and you will have a difference of opinion.

No I wouldn't. You have already revealed where your trust and faith lie. You put your faith and trust in the eastern orthodox denomination and it's 'tradition'. The real Apostles never had the extravagant clothing and adornments and color glass windows and costumes, etc found in the eastern orthodox denomination's 'worship'.
The real Apostles, hand selected by God, were actually taking the Gospel to the world and baptizing as God commanded. They were living day to day with their lives on the line. Most martyred for the Gospel. Not performing all the pomp and circumstance found in the rc and eastern orthodox denominations version of 'worship'.

 

[ziapueblo]

Is the Bible the Word of God?

First off, Christ is the Word of God! Are the Scriptures the written Word of God, yes, Amen!

So what are these 'traditions' the Apostles carried around that they were taught by Christ?

I've answered what Tradition is for the Orthodox on post #63

What traditions do you hold to? Both word of mouth and letter?

It's is your eternal life on the line.

Amen! This is why I carry my cross daily.

I honestly do appreciate you concern about my eternal life! Pray for me as I will pray for you and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

You put your faith and trust in the eastern orthodox denomination and I will put my trust and faith in Christ as revealed in His Holy Word.

Amen! This is what I believe about the Orthodox Christian Church and that Christ's Word is living daily in the Tradition of the Church.

 

[ziapueblo]

Where did Peter or the others speak to Moses or Elijah?

Well, St Peter did ask Christ if he should make a tent for them, "And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli′jah.' (Matthew 17:4)" Obviously, he was aware of what was happening.

Bowing down is not to be done, it is a form of worship and trying to cover it up by changing words to and serving is just that a cover up.

Amen! Again, you miss the point, Orthodox do not worship icons! You seem to not want to fight me on this. I mean, if we believed they were gods and we served them, then yes, be concerned.

What I find odd is that every Orthodox Christian worships Christ and no matter how many times I tell you we do not worship idols, you just won't take my word for it. That is fine, I know what is true.

I haven't questioned your Christianity, that shows your inability to read a simple posts.

Misunderstood your comment. I ask for your forgiveness.

Praying to the dead comes from false pagan beliefs for a start, needing statues also comes from the same source.

Good thing we don't pray to dead people or false gods.

Again, those in heaven know what is happening on earth and intercede for us, just as I have several times shown.

 

[ziapueblo]

No I wouldn't.

You should! It's all about Christ!

You have already revealed where your trust and faith lie.

Yup, in the Body of Christ!

You put your faith and trust in the eastern orthodox (Church) denomination and it's 'tradition'.

I do because it is the Body of Christ!

The real Apostles never had the extravagant clothing and adornments and color glass windows and costumes, etc found in the eastern orthodox denomination's 'worship'.

They didn't? You should take a look at the Book of Revelation again. Orthodox clergy wear the clothing of the what was worn during those times.

The real Apostles, hand selected by God, were actually taking the Gospel to the world and baptizing as God commanded.

Amen!

They were living day to day with their lives on the line.

As are Orthodox Christians in Egypt, Kenya, Uganda and other African countries. Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Afghanistan also, just to name a few.

Most martyred for the Gospel.

See above!

Not performing all the pomp and circumstance found in the rc and eastern orthodox denominations version of 'worship'.

Read Revelation again! It's not merely about the end times. It's about the Heavenly worship which we participate in. Don't speak on what you do not understand. Go to an Orthodox worship service and see for yourself. You would definitely be surprised, which actually surprises me. I see Christians across all Christian faith traditions worshiping God and it is a beautiful thing. I can think my form of worship is what God wants from us but still appreciate others worshiping our Lord.

 

[balshan]

Well, St Peter did ask Christ if he should make a tent for them, "And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli′jah.' (Matthew 17:4)" Obviously, he was aware of what was happening.


Amen! Again, you miss the point, Orthodox do not worship icons! You seem to not want to fight me on this. I mean, if we believed they were gods and we served them, then yes, be concerned.

What I find odd is that every Orthodox Christian worships Christ and no matter how many times I tell you we do not worship idols, you just won't take my word for it. That is fine, I know what is true.


Misunderstood your comment. I ask for your forgiveness.


Good thing we don't pray to dead people or false gods.

Again, those in heaven know what is happening on earth and intercede for us, just as I have several times shown.

Let me see that does not support for false belief. Jesus was in human form and Peter could speak to Him. Whether you like it or not bowing is a form of worship. You can say what you like but actions speak, tell me the difference between your bowing before an icon of Jesus and an icon of Mary? There is no difference at all.

You have it.

But you do pray to the dead, once dead all people are alive in a different form and they may be in different places. But they are dead. The word dead is in scripture and it means those not on this plane or those who are dead in spirit.

You ahve failed to prove that claim in any way. You have not shown it at all.

 

[Mik]

First off, Christ is the Word of God! Are the Scriptures the written Word of God, yes, Amen!


I've answered what Tradition is for the Orthodox on post #63

What traditions do you hold to? Both word of mouth and letter?


Amen! This is why I carry my cross daily.

I honestly do appreciate you concern about my eternal life! Pray for me as I will pray for you and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.


Amen! This is what I believe about the Orthodox Christian Church and that Christ's Word is living daily in the Tradition of the Church.

Thank you for agreeing with me. Your 'tradition' supersedes the infallible Word of God. Are your 'traditions' infallible?

 

[Mik]

You should! It's all about Christ!

It's more about rituals IMHO.

Yup, in the Body of Christ!

What is the Body of Christ? and Who belongs?

I do because it is the Body of Christ!

What is the Body of Christ? and Who belongs?

They didn't?

Nope

You should take a look at the Book of Revelation again.

Didn't understand my question? Here it is again:
The real Apostles never had the extravagant clothing and adornments and color glass windows and costumes, etc found in the eastern orthodox denomination's 'worship'.

Orthodox clergy wear the clothing of the what was worn during those times.

Eastern orthodox 'clergy' are not the Apostles who were hand-picked by God. I know the rc and eo denominations treat them as such. But the Apostles hand-picked by God would never allow people to bow and kiss the ring on their fingers if they wore one.

Amen!


As are Orthodox Christians in Egypt, Kenya, Uganda and other African countries. Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Afghanistan also, just to name a few.

Only 'orthodox' Christians?

See above!


Read Revelation again! It's not merely about the end times.

Of course it is.

It's about the Heavenly worship

okay

which we participate in.

eventually

Don't speak on what you do not understand.

Ditto

Go to an Orthodox worship service and see for yourself.

I have

You would definitely be surprised,

I wouldn't

which actually surprises me.

I believe it surprises you

I see Christians across all Christian faith traditions worshiping God

There is only one Faith, but many denominations, including yours

and it is a beautiful thing.

depends

I can think my form of worship is what God wants from us

you can

but still appreciate others worshiping our Lord.

me too

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This statement is laughable. I needed a good laugh! 🤣

But who's going to be laughing when physical life ends?? I'd rather put FAITH in God's WORD, not Catholic foolishness. Will YOU be laughing when your "Purgatory" turns out to be HELL????

 

[ziapueblo]

Whether you like it or not bowing is a form of worship.

Whether you like it or not, bowing is NOT ALWAYS a form of worship.

You can say what you like but actions speak, tell me the difference between your bowing before an icon of Jesus and an icon of Mary?

You can say and think what you want. Orthodox Christians DO NOT worship icons.

There you have it!

But you do pray to the dead, once dead all people are alive in a different form and they may be in different places. But they are dead. The word dead is in scripture and it means those not on this plane or those who are dead in spirit.

Once again, they are more alive than we are, as seen in the Scriptural references I posted which show that those in Heaven are fully aware of not only what happened to them on Earth, but also aware of what is happening and interceding on our behalf by bringing our prayers to God.

Do you use incense in worship? It is quite Scriptural, both New and Old. If not, why not?

You ahve failed to prove that claim in any way. You have not shown it at all.

I have shown the Orthodox perspective clearly. Whether you choose to see it that way or not is up to you. Your tradition teaches differently.

 

[ziapueblo]

Your 'tradition' supersedes the infallible Word of God. Are your 'traditions' infallible?

Not my traditions. The Churches (Body of Christ) Traditions.

Again, as Vladimir Lossky has famously described the Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church." It is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.

It's more about rituals IMHO.

It's about Christ. You said you would't go to an Orthodox and so I'm assuming you have never gone, so, you know nothing about any type of Orthodox service, whether it be Divine Liturgy, Orthros, Vespers or anything else.

What is the Body of Christ? and Who belongs?

The Body of Christ is the Church. As Orthodox, we do not see the Church as invisible. We believe that the Body of Christ are those who have been baptized into Christ and have are living the life of the Church. Because of baptism, we believe that all baptized, done properly with water and proper words, and preferably fully immersed are part of the Church, but not fully.

The real Apostles never had the extravagant clothing and adornments and color glass windows and costumes, etc found in the eastern orthodox denomination's 'worship'.

You know this?

I'm sure they did not as well (but I cannot be 100%). It developed over time and it all represents something that has to do with Christ and worship.

Of course it is.

Actually, it isn't and was never understood to be merely about the end times until recently. You should check out ancient commentary on Revelation (I mean before 1500).

I have

Ah, so you know that it is all not only "about ritual" but about Christ! I will say this, ritual is good. I have morning routines and rituals. I get up and pray, then workout, take a shower and then get dressed. I get the coffee ready and put together my wife's, daughter and my lunch. If my morning routine gets thrown off, my days is not quite what it should be. Same with worship and its a good thing. Your Church I'm sure has "rituals." Starts at a particular time. Time devoted to worship and praise music. A sermon. An alter call. This is all ritual.

There is only one Faith, but many denominations, including yours

This is true. However, Orthodoxy, we would say, is not a denomination. Protestant Christians separated from the Latin (Roman) Church and have splintered since. The Orthodox continue to worship and hold fast to the faith of the early Church. Roman Catholics would say a similar thing as well as some non-Orthodox and non-Catholic Christians.

I actually have enjoyed this discussion even though at times we probably get frustrated with one anothers answers.

 

[ziapueblo]

But who's going to be laughing when physical life ends??

I try to pick up my cross everyday and keep on the straight and narrow path.

I'd rather put FAITH in God's WORD, not Catholic foolishness.

Good thing I do put my faith in God's Word! By the way, I'm not Catholic. Orthodox are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.

Will YOU be laughing when your "Purgatory" turns out to be HELL????

Good thing Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory." Again, we are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I try to pick up my cross everyday and keep on the straight and narrow path.


Good thing I do put my faith in God's Word! By the way, I'm not Catholic. Orthodox are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.


Good thing Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory." Again, we are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.

dup.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I try to pick up my cross everyday and keep on the straight and narrow path.


Good thing I do put my faith in God's Word! By the way, I'm not Catholic. Orthodox are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.


Good thing Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory." Again, we are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.

"Orthodox" HAVE ALWAYS been much closer to the TRUTH that Roman Catholics ever were. That's probably why Rome tossed 'em under the bus 500 years ago.

Personally I don't "TRY" to pick up my cross - I REST in the one who DID, and the Holy Spirit who indwells (John 14:17) me as a Christian to CHANGE me into His Image (Rom 8:29) by FAITH (Heb 11:1) in the perfect SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) of Jesus on the cross.

 

[balshan]

Whether you like it or not, bowing is NOT ALWAYS a form of worship.


You can say and think what you want. Orthodox Christians DO NOT worship icons.

There you have it!


Once again, they are more alive than we are, as seen in the Scriptural references I posted which show that those in Heaven are fully aware of not only what happened to them on Earth, but also aware of what is happening and interceding on our behalf by bringing our prayers to God.

Do you use incense in worship? It is quite Scriptural, both New and Old. If not, why not?


I have shown the Orthodox perspective clearly. Whether you choose to see it that way or not is up to you. Your tradition teaches differently.

Bowing is a form of worship whether you like it or not and we are told not to do it before images.

If it looks like worship it is, you can say and think what you want. NO one can tell me the difference between bowing before an image of Christ or a saint.
There you have nothing.

Once again they are dead where they are no one knows for sure, so you point is meaningless. Some of your prayers could be to people in hell. Your references are meaningless because you are not God and therefor do not know where a person is after death. All the dead are alive either in heaven or hell. No evidence that they know what is going on at all.

I don't like incense for those with allergies it is a curse. It is not necessary.

Yep so what. We can all see it is wrong. We can bat this back and forth all day and you will not make breaking the commandments okay.

 

[balshan]

I try to pick up my cross everyday and keep on the straight and narrow path.


Good thing I do put my faith in God's Word! By the way, I'm not Catholic. Orthodox are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.


Good thing Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory." Again, we are not Roman Catholics with a funny Mass and no Pope.

One would hope all real believers do that. It does not mean all man made beliefs are right. Those of us brought up RCs do know the difference.

 

[ziapueblo]

Bowing is a form of worship whether you like it or not and we are told not to do it before images.

So Jacob was worshiping his brother when he bowed and prostrated seven times to him?

If it looks like worship it is, you can say and think what you want. NO one can tell me the difference between bowing before an image of Christ or a saint.

I only worship God.

Once again they are dead where they are no one knows for sure, so you point is meaningless.

They are not dead. Their souls have left Earth but they are more alive than we are. The Scriptures are clear that those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth and what happened to them, and they are taking our prayers, in the form of incense, before God! Whether you wish to see this or not, thats up to you.

I don't like incense for those with allergies it is a curse. It is not necessary.

Depends on the incense and it has always been used in worship. I'm sorry about your allergies.

We can bat this back and forth all day and you will not make breaking the commandments okay.

Sorry, not breaking a commandment because I only worship God.

 

[ziapueblo]

Personally I don't "TRY" to pick up my cross

So when Christ says pick up your cross and carry it, that means nothing?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So when Christ says pick up your cross and carry it, that means nothing?

I picked it up 60 years ago, and haven't dropped it yet. With the Holy SPirit indwelling, it's pretty natural, and "Works" don't contribute to salvation.

 

[balshan]

So Jacob was worshiping his brother when he bowed and prostrated seven times to him?


I only worship God.


They are not dead. Their souls have left Earth but they are more alive than we are. The Scriptures are clear that those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth and what happened to them, and they are taking our prayers, in the form of incense, before God! Whether you wish to see this or not, thats up to you.


Depends on the incense and it has always been used in worship. I'm sorry about your allergies.


Sorry, not breaking a commandment because I only worship God.

Yep you will always justify going against God's commandments, it has been a very slippery slope. Stop the word game with dead, they are dead. The bible uses the word dead, the RC catechism uses the word dead. All the dead are alive after their death, no one knows where they are heaven or hell.

 

[ziapueblo]

I picked it up 60 years ago, and haven't dropped it yet. With the Holy SPirit indwelling, it's pretty natural, and "Works" don't contribute to salvation.

Good to hear you've stayed on. I've gotten off the beaten path a time or two, but thank God, I've always found my way back.